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[quote="S0RCERER"]This thread is going to be based on facts. Not opinions or speculation, just fact. On Hsoma INT = Magic Attack and Magic Defence, WIS = Mana and Mana Regen. On Dsoma INT = Magic Attack, WIS = Magic Defence, both contribute to Mana and Mana Regen. Human Mages have far more Mana than Devil Mages (near endgame almost 3x as much). INT for both races is gained substantially faster than WIS. Upon reaching 95 WIS, WIS, relative to INT is about 3 to 4 times slower. At 150 INT a Human will have 150 Magic Attack and 150 Magic Defence (not factoring magic skills/gear) At 150 INT a Devil will have 150 Magic Attack and about 115 Magic Defence (not factoring magic skills/gear) This means that a Human Mage will [b]easily[/b] beat a Devil Mage in 1 on 1 combat at equal INT (not factoring magic skills/gear) Humans of all Magic Schools have a larger selection of Spells than Devils Humans can upgrade many more of their spells than Devils can Now we have established the above [b]facts[/b] regarding Humans and Devils, let's look at equipment. ><< MAGIC ATTACK >> >Human Mage Gear > >Shironim Wand: 14 ~ 18 >Hero Helm: 04 ~ 05 >Hero Chest: 05 ~ 08 >Hallo Pants: 00 ~ 07 >Soul Rings: 08 ~ 08 (4x2) >Necro Charm: 02 ~ 02 >Warp Necklace: 00 ~ 09 > >Total 33 ~ 57 > >----------------------- > >Devil Mage Gear > >Staff Shadows: 24 ~ 31 >Hallo Pants: 00 ~ 07 >Soul Rings: 08 ~ 08 (4x2) >Mind Aid: 05 ~ 05 >Medusa Flower: 01 ~ 01 > >Total 38 ~ 52 > >----------------------- >Conclusion: Humans have more magic attack (-05 ~ 03) > > ><< MAGIC DEFENCE >> >Human Mage Gear > >Nightmare (88-97 int gear) >Hat: 05 ~ 06 >Robe: 06 ~ 11 >Pants: 06 ~ 11 >Boots: 06 ~ 08 >Vortex Earring: 00 ~ 09 >Soul Rings: 08 ~ 08 (4x2) >Anti Dev Neck: 03 ~ 03 > >Total 34 ~ 56 > > >Devil Mage Gear > >Shadows (104 int gear) >Hat: XX ~ XX >Robe: 03 ~ 07 >Pants: 05 ~ 08 >Boots: 05 ~ 07 >Soul Rings: 08 ~ 08 (4x2) >Soul Shield: 05 ~ 05 > >Total 24 ~ 35 > >Diabolist (73 int gear) >Hat: 05 ~ 06 >Robe: 04 ~ 08 >Pants: 06 ~ 09 >Boots: 06 ~ 08 >Soul Rings: 08 ~ 08 (4x2) >Soul Shield: 05 ~ 05 > >Total 34 ~ 44 >----------------------- >Conclusion: Humans have more magic defence vs Shadows (10 ~ 21), vs Diabolist (00 ~ 12) All of the above items are based on untagged stats and without the use of any upgrades. Evidently, once those two are factored in, the gap between Humans and Devils widens. After identifying the obvious disparity between the two races, which only grows as you continue to train INT, surely it stands to reason that in every case, be it Magic Attack, Spells, Magic Defence etc. - a Devil Mage should be superior in it's only form of combat? Why is it that Humans, without gear, are stronger than Devils, yet also have better equipment? This is compounded by the fact that Nightmares are faster to level on than Drazil Druid, or Gargoyle Shaman. (50%~75% quicker) Further added, is that you can make far more profit from Nightmares than you can from either DD or GS. Why should a class which suffers the worst stat gains in the game, the least balance and is even crippled in it's own "field of combat" also level the slowest? Why does this class also not have a monster that can take it to end-game, like that of War Beast Miner. I've asked countless times, given countless suggestions - I'd just like to know the view of others and if they see anything wrong with how this game is 'balanced'. Again, as you can see from my above examples of stats/gear, you can imagine at WotW where Devils are handicapped how this situation infuriates Devil Mages. I implore those who read this, to make comment with their opinion on the situation. The new upgrades with status effects will marginalise mages status spells, which are already neutralised by serums, low range and very long cast times.[/quote]

[quote="GRAVIJA"]I never understood why shadow robes are worse than diab in overall MD/DEF terms which I think should definately be addressed. The wis as magic defence is also very frustrating. I'm not a mage and never will be but I'de be more than happy to see changes to Dsoma mages such as: Level 2/3 Healing, Weaken, Mass heal, Poison, Blind, Confuse, Spirit sword (1 range more than bow like hsoma spells). Buffed shadow armour with a new skin and a hat. As for mage mobs, thats more of a mage discussion. But the above changes would still put Dsoma mages below par with Hsoma mages and I feel the suggestions would be a completely fair addition to Dsoma mages. Especially as Dsoma mages are ALWAYS going to be a percentage disadvantage to a comparable Hsoma mage. This isnt a Dsoma vs Hsoma issue, its just a Dsoma mage issue. EDIT* The current mats added to Dsoma mobs could be used to upgrade mage spells.[/quote]

[quote="IPHIOS"]If the maths are correct (don't know about dsoma) then it seems there is an issue. What int is a dsoma mage likely to achieve at cap? ;o [/quote]

[quote="YOSHIMITSU"][quote="IPHIOS"]If the maths are correct (don't know about dsoma) then it seems there is an issue. What int is a dsoma mage likely to achieve at cap? ;o [/quote] There is and has been for a while, mages need a good overhaul for all of the above reasons stated and the fact that they stop gaining stats from actually doing INT at a lower rate/level then the rest and they are required to punch for good stats per level, which again is ludicrous[/quote]

[quote="S0RCERER"][quote="IPHIOS"]If the maths are correct (don't know about dsoma) then it seems there is an issue. What int is a dsoma mage likely to achieve at cap? ;o [/quote] HSoma cap: 145+30 (Nightmare) DSoma cap: 155+30 (Drazil Druid) By 185int, a Devil mage will have no more than 125/130 wis, meaning his unaided magic defence will be trailing behind his magic attack by 50 and a human's MA/MD at cap by 40.[/quote]

[quote="IPHIOS"]Ah - grim =/ Although the likely hood of any human getting that int is slim - it doesn't detract from the original post. [quote="S0RCERER"]I implore those who read this, to make comment with their opinion on the situation. [/quote] Needs sorting to make dsoma mage a viable pvp/rvr class. All dsoma melee will always be superior to humans with regards to attack/defense. The same should apply to mages.[/quote]

[quote="STYLE"]Wouldn't changing something so drastic be a massive game changer? Meaning anyone who is a Mage now on dsoma would have to make a new Mage? [/quote]

[quote="S0RCERER"][quote="STYLE"]Wouldn't changing something so drastic be a massive game changer? Meaning anyone who is a Mage now on dsoma would have to make a new Mage? [/quote] Gear, as shown above, is the first thing that should be addressed. This doesn't negatively impact any current Mage or future Mage. Robes improved and higher tier(s) implemented to reflect the massive lack in passive magic defence (due to poor WIS gains). A higher staff above Staff of Shadows (99skill) along with a larger variety of accessories to boost Magic Attack seeing as even with the exclusion of Upgrades, Humans outshine Devil Mages in this department also. Upgrades to existing spells, all of which should be on par, or have a slight edge over their Human counterpart spells - currently, as can be pointed out; Humans possess far more spells and with many more upgrades. The address to Stat balancing and how to fix Mage gains is a tougher trick to tackle - in short, introducing a Mage Monster that can take you to endgame would go a long way in helping. One way to prevent Mages from hunting them prematurely would be to give them substantially high magic attack, allow them to drop robes with really high Magic Defence (which the Mage would otherwise have if their gains weren't horrible), but the robes require a large amount of INT to use. This would only allow Mages whom have the required INT to equip the robes, to hunt them. A nice round figure would be 150int - this would mean that Drazil Druids and Gargoyle Shamans wouldn't be "skipped" as is the case with Kharil Lizards and War Beast Miners (due to Healer alts).[/quote]

[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]A buff to shadows (104 int) and removing the WIS slowdown ONLY for mages (if possible) is what I'd like to see. EDIT: This would require all mages currently above 95 int to have their WIS manually set to the same as their INT.[/quote]

[quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="JARAGOONDOO"]A buff to shadows (104 int) and removing the WIS slowdown ONLY for mages (if possible) is what I'd like to see. EDIT: This would require all mages currently above 95 int to have their WIS manually set to the same as their INT.[/quote] Changing stat ratios will be avoided if possible. Wis can be fixed through gear. Even a stat quest would be a better option. Nice thread, keep it going.[/quote]

[quote="JARAGOONDOO"][quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="JARAGOONDOO"]A buff to shadows (104 int) and removing the WIS slowdown ONLY for mages (if possible) is what I'd like to see. EDIT: This would require all mages currently above 95 int to have their WIS manually set to the same as their INT.[/quote] Changing stat ratios will be avoided if possible. Wis can be fixed through gear. Even a stat quest would be a better option. Nice thread, keep it going.[/quote] Why? Give me your reasonings. Why should WIS and INT be different gains for mages? And it's not changing ratios. It's removing the slowdown at 95 and beyond for WIS (so it's the same as INT).[/quote]

[quote="RELINA"]think all devil magic should be upgradeable to -X Reduce the barr price by at least half, add a item req to the upgrade process (Devils Blood) Gives something to hunt for which is lacking a lot on dsoma [/quote]

[quote="ADATH"]One of the best places to start in my opinion is shadow armor make this a viable set with decent MD and a skin tweak even if it's a red and black diabolist set with a black "magic hat" (human skin) that would look sick lol.[/quote]

[quote="ADATH"][quote="S0RCERER"] A nice round figure would be 150int - this would mean that Drazil Druids and Gargoyle Shamans wouldn't be "skipped" as is the case with Kharil Lizards and War Beast Miners (due to Healer alts).[/quote] I have had an interesting idea regarding this which links in with the new shadow set. If an end game INT mob is implemented lets call it "Shadow Weaver" or something along those lines and give it an ability which acts like a poison, lets call that "Shadow Poison". Now this Shadow poison will have an incredibly high DPS tick which basically makes the mob unhuntable. Why you ask?? Then tweak the shadow armor set to be decent MD and require very High int lets say 130 because I think 150 is a little high but this is up for debate. Now the key to this new set though is the hat which will have an effect similar to the anti poison bracelet on Human soma which gives the wearer immunity to Shadow Poison. This makes it so anyone with less than 130 int is unable to hunt the mob at all due to the poison preventing premature hunting and also adding a real need to obtain this end game armor set. This set could either be dropped by DD or be obtained via a really cool quest chain making it almost like mage hero armor for end game. Let me know what you think I just thought this added a much more interesting solution to just tweaking stats. [/quote]