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[quote="WER"]am i the only1 that thinks a 35-38 rap knux seems pretty epic?:o [/quote]

[quote="FUJITORA"][quote="WER"]am i the only1 that thinks a 35-38 rap knux seems pretty epic?:o [/quote] You could say that but epic apus bows will be ~33-52 If you look at epic HoMs they hsould be ~31-69 And no im not saying knuk should have as much attack as a 2h axe, but just using it as comparison... So when you factor in the bonus attack gained by skill No 35-38 is pretty shit.[/quote]

[quote="NITE"][quote="WER"]am i the only1 that thinks a 35-38 rap knux seems pretty epic?:o [/quote] Ye you are pretty much the only one =/[/quote]

[quote="CYROX"]I chose nux for pve and not pvp so I accept we will never be as competitive in pvp. Being a pve weap the increase in dodge was a much needed change. I was hoping for more but appreciate the change and that is a different matter to discuss. The way the tagged system works I agree that nux is the weap that benefits the least. As a percentage based change the higher the figures the bigger the change. I think damage is fine. But I think the lower the speed the greater the bonus should be. I.e nux will gain its current bonus to damage but a high bonus to speed. Spear would gain the opposite, a good bonus in damage compared to a smaller bonus to speed. This way the tagged system is buffing the properties that particular weap is designed for. I.e nux out of all weaps gets the best boost to speed. Just my opinion but do believe something is required as the numbers do clearly show a disadvantage. [/quote]

[quote="FUJITORA"][quote="CYROX"]But I think the lower the speed the greater the bonus should be. I.e nux will gain its current bonus to damage but a high bonus to speed. Spear would gain the opposite, a good bonus in damage compared to a smaller bonus to speed. [/quote] Unfortunately currently it works the exact opposite of this, the slower the weapon the bigger the recoil gain from tags, so knuk loses out heavily in comparison to spears, and well in comparison to everything really...[/quote]

[quote="CYROX"]I may have not explained it that well but that's exactly what I was trying to day Fuji. As it is percentage based nux gains less speed than it should. I don't know how easy it would be but maybe change the tagged system to set increases across all weaps. Therefore the gains would be identcle. I dunno if this can be done or the impact it may have on balancing issues. It may be easier to tweak nux base stats. It's understandable tweaks would be needed with such a dramatic change from esoma.[/quote]

[quote="CHOJINE"]The only problem the tagged system has with knuckle is tagged armour sets. The small attack increase, when pitched against the generous defense boost from tagged items, makes it so that knuckle generally deals 1 damage per hit, as it cannot overcome an opponents defense. Whereas other weapons already can overcome them with their max attack rating and the buff provided via tagged weapons only further adds to the damage they inflict in PvP. A better system would be a set amount of damage added across the board. E.g. 2-2 for Hardened, 4-6 for Rare, 6-8 for Epic, 8-10 for Intense, 10-12 for Legendary. Of course, the aforementioned figures are arbitrary and hold no meaning beyond expressing my idea. The tagged system does keep weapon attacks in proportion, but you have to keep in mind each weapons ability to overcome tagged item boosts. Also, if each weapon were to gain the exact same boost, it would still be in proportion, just the base stats of each would be +X amount, but on both, essentially leaving the exact same ratio as before. The way it works now is akin to making weapon skill requiring armour sets, and making knuckle and bow set give 4 strength, whilst axe and sword set gains 10 strength, it wouldn't work, you would create a common across the board set, where everyone can gain access to it and have the same strength boost, making it equal and fair.[/quote]

[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]I [b]disagree[/b] with all of the above ideas for the buffing of Knuckles. I will admit, I am not completely sure about the ATTACK of every weapon for HSoma, but for DSoma I believe it is fine (by that I mean, DSoma Knuckle damage is fine, HSoma MAY not be). Firstly, onto the issue of recoil increases not benefitting Knuckles as much as other weapons. As I am sure you are all aware the speed variable on every weapon is exactly the amount of MS required before the next attack is fired. The base speed on Knuckle is set to 800. To attain a 10% boost in DPS, Knuckle speed needs to be reduced by 80, down to 720 (in 8 seconds, this knuckle will hit a total of 11.11 times instead of 10.0; that's actually a DPS increase barely greater than 10%). Need another example? OK. To DOUBLE the DPS of a Knuckle of base speed (800) we would need a speed of 400 (a decrease of [b]400[/b] from 800). To double the DPS of a Bow of base speed (1100) we would need a speed of 550 (a dcrease of [b]550[/b] from 1100)). So let's make things clear. [b]To double our effective DPS with the Knuckle we needed a speed increase (or decrease) of 400![/b] [b]To double our effective DPS with the Bow we needed a speed increase (or decrease) of 550![/b] If the above point still makes you think tagged recoil is an issue then you are lost. Onto attack damage now (note the following is only theoritical figures and [b]very[/b] simplified, but just to give you an idea): Person A has an [Epic] Knuckle that gives him an average attack damage boost of 20 over the untagged equivilent. Person B has an [Epic] Spear that gives him an average attack damage boost of 30 over the untagged equivilent. Average attack damage can be obtained like so: (minAtt+maxAtt)/2 So, the tagged system clearly favours the Spear, right? Wrong. You forget Knuckle attacks 50% faster than spear (800 against 1200, I'm assuming recoil is at base speed for simplicity's sake). Over the course of 12 seconds, Person A will land 15 hits. Over the course of 12 seconds Person B will land a total of 10 hits. But what does this mean? [b]Over the course of 12 seconds, both Person A and Person B have landed an additional 300 damage, 15*20 and 10*30, respecitively.[/b] I will admit, my damage calculations are a bit theoritical, but I think I am being more than generous with the damage values. I hope this has informed all of you on why Knuckle does not need a buff right now ~ A level 62 Devil Knuckler and a Student studying Computer Games, specialising in Gameplay programming. PS. Actually wouldn't mind dodge being upped to 12%, but 10% is good enough ;)[/quote]

[quote="GREATERIX"][quote="JARAGOONDOO"] So, the tagged system clearly favours the Spear, right? Wrong. You forget Knuckle attacks 50% faster than spear (800 against 1200, I'm assuming recoil is at base speed for simplicity's sake). Over the course of 12 seconds, Person A will land 15 hits. Over the course of 12 seconds Person B will land a total of 10 hits. But what does this mean? [b]Over the course of 12 seconds, both Person A and Person B have landed an additional 300 damage, 15*20 and 10*30, respecitively.[/b] I will admit, my damage calculations are a bit theoritical, but I think I am being more than generous with the damage values. I hope this has informed all of you on why Knuckle does not need a buff right now [/quote] A key part you've missed imo is the effect of DF. It's all very well getting "the same" bonus damage, however the advantage will always fall to the higher attacks purely because they'll be more damage left over DF values. It's alot easier for knux to end up doing 1 damage due to a higher proportion of hits being below DF than it is say a spear/axe wielder. [/quote]

[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]And that brings me back to my earlier point that Knuckle PvP damage will remain low until late-game (high skill and final weapon). It's always been this way. It's not as a result of the tag system. You sacrifice your early and mid-game PvP for faster leveling.[/quote]

[quote="PATHOLOGIST"]But weapon damage bonus from skill is worked out from your dmg of the weapon. So if the tags give stronger weapons a higher bonus, and knuckle the least, we still have the lowest dps increase of all the weapons. From tags, and as a result, from skill (compared to the stronger weapons) We do start doing dmg later on, but compared to the rest who are already doing dmg, they just do more, In fact the gap gets larger as they progress. It's not an equal playing field.[/quote]

[quote="S0RCERER"]I think the easiest way to demonstrate this Jara is to use hypotheticals. Axe does 100~100 with recoil of 2000 Knuckle does 50~50 with recoil of 1000 Intense Axe is +40% Intense Knuckle is +40% Axe will have 140~140 and 1200 recoil Knuckle will have 70~70 and 600 recoil Difference from norm to Intense Axe gained 40~40 damage and lost 800 recoil Knuckle gained 20~20 damage and lost 400 recoil Result effect is that knuckle gained much less damage and recoil from the tag system than the axe did. The larger the values, the larger the bonus the tag system gives to you. This, as Path mentioned, makes the gaps between the high dmg and low dmg weapons that much bigger. (We know that recoil isn't based on the same percentages as weapon damage, but it's still based on a percentage). TLDR: The higher the recoil and the higher the weapon damage, the more you benefit from the tag system.[/quote]

[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]You kind of just proved my point there... Both your hypothetical [Intense] weapons have the exact same DPS (I assume the 60~60 was a typo, should be 70~70), as do the untagged versions. Note: I am well aware Knuckle gains less damage and recoil than the other weapons. I have already explained why Knuckle gains less, and I have explained why it is balanced. There's no need to keep saying the same thing over and over. Also, in reply to Pathologist: Yes, weapon damage has a scalar (weight) value applied to it based upon your skill. That makes no difference to the end result, it just makes the weapon with higher attack PvP-viable at an earlier stage (going back to my point about end-game Knuckle damage being good). The tag system and the weapon scaling system is perfectly fine. However, as GREATERIX mentioned, the problem is with defense. Knuckle just does not see the benefit until much later when Attack greatly pulls ahead of Defense (which will happen thanks to weapon scaling).[/quote]

[quote="S0RCERER"][quote="JARAGOONDOO"]You kind of just proved my point there...[/quote] I fail to understand how that proves the point you're making, the DPS gained from the axe is larger than the DPS gained on the Knuckle. Initial dps of axe = 1 attack every 2 seconds (100att/2sec = 50 dps) Initial dps of knuck = 1 attack every 1 second (50att/1sec = 50 dps) They both start at 50 dps Go from norm to intense results in: Intense dps of axe = 1 attack every 1.2seconds (140/1.2sec = 117dps) Intense dps of knuck = 1 attack every 0.6sec (70/0.6sec = 117dps) They both started on the same DPS, but as percentages affect higher figures more favourably, the net DPS increase of the axe is much more generous than to the knuckle. Axes aren't 100~100 ingame and knuckles aren't 50~50, neither are axes 2k recoil and knuckles aren't 1k recoil, again, it's hypothetical. ------------- // edit // It seems Knuckle doesn't have a drawback in DPS with the tagged system // edit //[/quote]

[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]I suggest you check your maths, bro. 50*1.4 = 70, not 60. Their DPS is the same (116.67). EDIT: Oh, and I know it was a typo since you said it gained 20 damage (and not 10).[/quote]