The Forum
Knuckle
| Author | Content | Date |
|---|---|---|
|
S0RCERER |
"JARAGOONDOO"I suggest you check your maths, bro. 50*1.4 = 70, not 60. Their DPS is the same (116.67). Indeed an error on my part, will correct it, 1 mo. // edit // It seems knuckle isn't getting the short end of the stick with the tag system // edit // // edit edit // Not all information has been considered regarding how weapon damage and weapon skill affect attack, will show the benefits of this shortly which, contrary to what I said above, shows knuckle doesn't benefit as much from the tagged system // edit edit //
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="S0RCERER"][quote="JARAGOONDOO"]I suggest you check your maths, bro. 50*1.4 = 70, not 60. Their DPS is the same (116.67).
EDIT: Oh, and I know it was a typo since you said it gained 20 damage (and not 10).[/quote]
Indeed an error on my part, will correct it, 1 mo.
// edit // It seems knuckle isn't getting the short end of the stick with the tag system // edit //
// edit edit // Not all information has been considered regarding how weapon damage and weapon skill affect attack, will show the benefits of this shortly which, contrary to what I said above, shows knuckle doesn't benefit as much from the tagged system // edit edit //[/quote]
|
#31 2013/11/19 19:20:37 |
|
CHOJINE |
Hopefully knuckle melee damage will be rectified endgame with better weapons and higher strength.
The only problem with comparing dps on different weapons, is sword for example will do its attack in one attack, knuckle in two. Therefore, all bonus damage awarded will be in damage 'past' the targets defense. Knuckle may do exactly the same damage, but because it is in two hits, negligible damage is done to the target, and even with end game weapons, assuming players stay at a similar strength for base defense, knuckles attack barely increases, so the current situation where players have buffed defense from tagged armour will not get better for knuckle users, unless they get to end game and go axe to give their knuckle a lot more attack. Once you are at KoD, you are pretty much looking at an increase of attack of around 10-15 between your current weapon, and the highest knuckle in the game.
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="CHOJINE"]Hopefully knuckle melee damage will be rectified endgame with better weapons and higher strength.
The only problem with comparing dps on different weapons, is sword for example will do its attack in one attack, knuckle in two.
Therefore, all bonus damage awarded will be in damage 'past' the targets defense.
Knuckle may do exactly the same damage, but because it is in two hits, negligible damage is done to the target, and even with end game weapons, assuming players stay at a similar strength for base defense, knuckles attack barely increases, so the current situation where players have buffed defense from tagged armour will not get better for knuckle users, unless they get to end game and go axe to give their knuckle a lot more attack.
Once you are at KoD, you are pretty much looking at an increase of attack of around 10-15 between your current weapon, and the highest knuckle in the game.[/quote]
|
#32 2013/11/19 20:02:23 |
|
JARAGOONDOO |
You forget that Knuckle has the highest DPS of all the weapons (S0rc was just using 50~50/100~100 to simplfy the examples, in reality I think it is more like 67~74(?) and 62~92(?) for untagged end-game Knuckles and Axes, respecively, on DSoma) except maybe Axe with 4th.
My average attack using a [RARE] KoD (end-game Devil Knuckle) is 240. At speed 760 my DPS is 316. Any other Level 62 from another class want to calculate their actual DPS? They will see it is lower than mine (except Axers with 4th, maybe). All in all, stop crying and wait till end-game. Ya'll knew what you signed up for when you chose Knuckle. I wanted fast leveling and be strong at end-game, and this is what I got (and will get).
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]You forget that Knuckle has the highest DPS of all the weapons (S0rc was just using 50~50/100~100 to simplfy the examples, in reality I think it is more like 67~74(?) and 62~92(?) for untagged end-game Knuckles and Axes, respecively, on DSoma) except maybe Axe with 4th.
My average attack using a [RARE] KoD (end-game Devil Knuckle) is 240. At speed 760 my DPS is 316. Any other Level 62 from another class want to calculate their actual DPS? They will see it is lower than mine (except Axers with 4th, maybe).
All in all, stop crying and wait till end-game. Ya'll knew what you signed up for when you chose Knuckle. I wanted fast leveling and be strong at end-game, and this is what I got (and will get).[/quote]
|
#33 2013/11/19 20:27:40 |
|
PATHOLOGIST |
"S0RCERER"// edit edit // Not all information has been considered regarding how weapon damage and weapon skill affect attack, will show the benefits of this shortly which, contrary to what I said above, shows knuckle doesn't benefit as much from the tagged system // edit edit // I don't understand why people skim read my posts, I explained why knuckle loses out using this tagged system, and you're all going on with some made-up, non-thought-out maths. I've proven it in game, and I hope s0rc can be bothered to type it up here because clearly people read his posts more.
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="PATHOLOGIST"][quote="S0RCERER"]// edit edit // Not all information has been considered regarding how weapon damage and weapon skill affect attack, will show the benefits of this shortly which, contrary to what I said above, shows knuckle doesn't benefit as much from the tagged system // edit edit //[/quote]
I don't understand why people skim read my posts, I explained why knuckle loses out using this tagged system, and you're all going on with some made-up, non-thought-out maths.
I've proven it in game, and I hope s0rc can be bothered to type it up here because clearly people read his posts more.[/quote]
|
#34 2013/11/19 21:00:53 |
|
JARAGOONDOO |
I have thought about skill scaling and I did not skim your post, I'm just suprised you brought it up since it makes no difference to the argument. I will admit I do not completely understand how the equation works (how skill is translated to damage), but I am pretty sure your skill is the input and and the output is a scalar value and that is multiplied against the attack values on your weapon.
Scale the damage however you want on those hypothetical weapons S0rc presented (or any real weapon for that matter) and you will see the same results. None of the maths so far has been made up, we've just used hypothetical values to simplify it for for everyone to understand. Like I've said time and again, Knuckles only see the benefit much later in the game, the reason you all think Knuckle is not good is because it takes Knuckle the longest to surpass Defense values. Either way, I am certain iSylver and Finito know better than us (about Knuckles and their viability), and I doubt it's going to undergo any more changes (for better or for worse).
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]I have thought about skill scaling and I did not skim your post, I'm just suprised you brought it up since it makes no difference to the argument. I will admit I do not completely understand how the equation works (how skill is translated to damage), but I am pretty sure your skill is the input and and the output is a scalar value and that is multiplied against the attack values on your weapon.
Scale the damage however you want on those hypothetical weapons S0rc presented (or any real weapon for that matter) and you will see the same results. None of the maths so far has been made up, we've just used hypothetical values to simplify it for for everyone to understand.
Like I've said time and again, Knuckles only see the benefit much later in the game, the reason you all think Knuckle is not good is because it takes Knuckle the longest to surpass Defense values.
Either way, I am certain iSylver and Finito know better than us (about Knuckles and their viability), and I doubt it's going to undergo any more changes (for better or for worse).[/quote]
|
#35 2013/11/19 22:32:57 |
|
TIOKZ |
Excluding attack bonus's gained by skill (Which i belive higher attack weps get more attack? I dont know)
Assuming all damage delt is greater than 1 (I would assume in a rare tagged bone set, damage being delt by knuk will ocasionally be 1 damage, against a person of equal str, but again i dont know) Excluding all damage gained with auras (2nd spear / 4th knuk / 5th sword ect)  Information speaks for itself but a small point id like to make: An epic judge axe with 4th aura has almost equal dps as a ripper, lold. (Someone will say 5th sword at this point, but only a select minority will have 5th sword and that is many months down the line)
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="TIOKZ"][b]Excluding attack bonus's gained by skill[/b] (Which i belive higher attack weps get more attack? I dont know)
[b]Assuming all damage delt is greater than 1[/b] (I would assume in a rare tagged bone set, damage being delt by knuk will ocasionally be 1 damage, against a person of equal str, but again i dont know)
[b] Excluding all damage gained with auras (2nd spear / 4th knuk / 5th sword ect)[/b]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/DOEPhbY.png[/img]
Information speaks for itself but a small point id like to make:
An epic judge axe with 4th aura has almost equal dps as a ripper, lold. (Someone will say 5th sword at this point, but only a select minority will have 5th sword and that is many months down the line)[/quote]
|
#36 2013/11/20 20:24:47 |
|
PATHOLOGIST |
"TIOKZ"Excluding attack bonus's gained by skill (Which i belive higher attack weps get more attack? I dont know) That calculation shows exactly what s0rc and jara are saying. But all 3 of your methods, as you rightly pointed out do not take skill bonus dmg into the equation. Which is where knuckle loses out. Why argue a case using only half of the information?
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="PATHOLOGIST"][quote="TIOKZ"][b]Excluding attack bonus's gained by skill[/b] (Which i belive higher attack weps get more attack? I dont know)
[b]Assuming all damage delt is greater than 1[/b] (I would assume in a rare tagged bone set, damage being delt by knuk will ocasionally be 1 damage, against a person of equal str, but again i dont know)
[b] Excluding all damage gained with auras (2nd spear / 4th knuk / 5th sword ect)[/b]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/DOEPhbY.png[/img]
Information speaks for itself but a small point id like to make:
An epic judge axe with 4th aura has almost equal dps as a ripper, lold. (Someone will say 5th sword at this point, but only a select minority will have 5th sword and that is many months down the line)[/quote]
That calculation shows exactly what s0rc and jara are saying.
But all 3 of your methods, as you rightly pointed out do not take skill bonus dmg into the equation.
Which is where knuckle loses out.
Why argue a case using only half of the information?[/quote]
|
#37 2013/11/20 20:49:37 |
|
CHOJINE |
Knuckle does more damage per second but ultimately in 2 hits, so hardly any damage transfers into damage to the enemy, take for example if you will, a swordie that hits once a second but has an attack of 150, and a knuckler who has an attack of 120 (Max attacks).
Knuckler will hit twice in less than a second, but if the enemy has 115 defense, will only do like 10 damage. Whereas the swordie will do up to 30. Against monsters though, knuckle is very good. I am against increasing knuckles attack, if anything is buffed for attack it should be equal and across the board.
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="CHOJINE"]Knuckle does more damage per second but ultimately in 2 hits, so hardly any damage transfers into damage to the enemy, take for example if you will, a swordie that hits once a second but has an attack of 150, and a knuckler who has an attack of 120 (Max attacks).
Knuckler will hit twice in less than a second, but if the enemy has 115 defense, will only do like 10 damage.
Whereas the swordie will do up to 30.
Against monsters though, knuckle is very good.
I am against increasing knuckles attack, if anything is buffed for attack it should be equal and across the board.
[/quote]
|
#38 2013/11/20 22:20:59 |
|
JARAGOONDOO |
Chojine I agree with you. This is the reason Knuckle is bad in PvP in the early stages. However, as your skill increases your damage will begin to massively outpace your defence. It will take a while but you will eventually reach a point where Knuckle is doing the highest effective DPS to most targets of any weapon.
Also in reply to Pathologist, I am saying the skill damage bonus is balanced in the same way the tagged damage bonus is balanced. You're welcome to post your numbers to prove me wrong, but you'll need to know the formula to work out final damage. To help you out, I think I figured out how minimum damage is calculated (you're on your own for figuring out maximum damage): ((((YourSkill/2)/100)+1)*WeaponMinAttack)+STR+1 If anyone wants to confirm if the above formula works for them that'd be much appreciated.
PM
Reply
Quote
[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]Chojine I agree with you. This is the reason Knuckle is bad in PvP in the early stages. However, as your skill increases your damage will begin to massively outpace your defence. It will take a while but you will eventually reach a point where Knuckle is doing the highest effective DPS to most targets of any weapon.
Also in reply to Pathologist, I am saying the skill damage bonus is balanced in the same way the tagged damage bonus is balanced. You're welcome to post your numbers to prove me wrong, but you'll need to know the formula to work out final damage. To help you out, I think I figured out how minimum damage is calculated (you're on your own for figuring out maximum damage):
((((YourSkill/2)/100)+1)*WeaponMinAttack)+STR+1
If anyone wants to confirm if the above formula works for them that'd be much appreciated. [/quote]
|
#39 2013/11/20 23:46:29 |
Please sign in with one of your characters to reply