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JARAGOONDOO |
Further to this, I've always thought spear to be quite lackluster compared to the other weapons. Then we see buffs for both Axe and Sword on this server (Shield buff, 2-handers upped from F speed to E speed, both 2nd auras buffed, 3rd sword useful for leveling now), while Spear is left in the dust.
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[quote="JARAGOONDOO"]Further to this, I've always thought spear to be quite lackluster compared to the other weapons. Then we see buffs for both Axe and Sword on this server (Shield buff, 2-handers upped from F speed to E speed, both 2nd auras buffed, 3rd sword useful for leveling now), while Spear is left in the dust.[/quote]
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#76 2014/03/20 15:50:55 |
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HOJO |
"TRICEPTIMOUS" Now it has been a while since I last tested it so I may be a bit out, but I'm pretty sure my 3rd can heal me for about 25-30% of my max hp, so that alone would be too much if I could use it every 5 seconds like 2nd, never mind 5th with the same cd. If 5th was 125% hit, healing for 100% of damage done with say 15 sec cooldown, I reckon that would be a fairly viable aura which could be argued to serve a purpose. Of course in an ideal world I'd say it should be a 150% hit aura which heals for 75% of damage done on a 20 sec cooldown but who knows what would be considered balanced compared to the awesomeness of 5th sword or 5th axe. As it stands, on dsoma at least, 2nd spear is literally the only aura ever worth using from the second you get it to the end of time in both PvP and PvE. I don't mind it too much because I knew that when I started, but tbh I was at least expecting 4th to be r2.
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[quote="HOJO"][quote="TRICEPTIMOUS"]
It wouldnt be too much tho as it would be to counteract the lost 10-10 defence you could gain whilst wearing a shield. [/quote]
Now it has been a while since I last tested it so I may be a bit out, but I'm pretty sure my 3rd can heal me for about 25-30% of my max hp, so that alone would be too much if I could use it every 5 seconds like 2nd, never mind 5th with the same cd. If 5th was 125% hit, healing for 100% of damage done with say 15 sec cooldown, I reckon that would be a fairly viable aura which could be argued to serve a purpose. Of course in an ideal world I'd say it should be a 150% hit aura which heals for 75% of damage done on a 20 sec cooldown but who knows what would be considered balanced compared to the awesomeness of 5th sword or 5th axe.
As it stands, on dsoma at least, 2nd spear is literally the only aura ever worth using from the second you get it to the end of time in both PvP and PvE. I don't mind it too much because I knew that when I started, but tbh I was at least expecting 4th to be r2.[/quote]
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#77 2014/03/20 22:09:05 |
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TRICEPTIMOUS |
"HOJO" I've tested the new 3rd myself, and it heals probably about 1/8th of my HP. Although Its all dependant on how much you hit the other mob for. As your dsoma, and have higher attack, naturally you are going to receive more HP as you are hitting for a greater amount.
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[quote="TRICEPTIMOUS"][quote="HOJO"]
Now it has been a while since I last tested it so I may be a bit out, but I'm pretty sure my 3rd can heal me for about 25-30% of my max hp, [/quote]
I've tested the new 3rd myself, and it heals probably about 1/8th of my HP. Although Its all dependant on how much you hit the other mob for.
As your dsoma, and have higher attack, naturally you are going to receive more HP as you are hitting for a greater amount.
[/quote]
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#78 2014/03/21 07:43:09 |
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FLICKTHEBEAN |
Wow, the differences in h-soma damage and D-soma damage effect the 3rd aura so much, that's crazy, but as stated my problems and suggestions relate to H-soma and I believe changes must be made on H-soma.
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#79 2014/03/21 10:15:23 |
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GHOSTLORD |
"FLICKTHEBEAN"Wow, the differences in h-soma damage and D-soma damage effect the 3rd aura so much, that's crazy, but as stated my problems and suggestions relate to H-soma and I believe changes must be made on H-soma. Maybe we could do something similar to Axe, but the other way around. Buff 3rd/5th for hsoma only. Just throwing a random idea out there.
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[quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="FLICKTHEBEAN"]Wow, the differences in h-soma damage and D-soma damage effect the 3rd aura so much, that's crazy, but as stated my problems and suggestions relate to H-soma and I believe changes must be made on H-soma. [/quote]
Maybe we could do something similar to Axe, but the other way around. Buff 3rd/5th for hsoma only.
Just throwing a random idea out there.[/quote]
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#80 2014/03/21 10:44:31 |
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JARAGOONDOO |
"GHOSTLORD""FLICKTHEBEAN"Wow, the differences in h-soma damage and D-soma damage effect the 3rd aura so much, that's crazy, but as stated my problems and suggestions relate to H-soma and I believe changes must be made on H-soma. No, I don't think that's a good idea. Devils have higher damage, sure, but Hojo's level is around high 70s, maybe early 80s. Also with an Epic FINAL-tier Spear of course he's going to hit like a truck. Then there is also the fact that Devils have much less HP than Humans, so 25% of his total health is a lot less than 25% of a Human's total health. The end effect is probably the same.
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[quote="JARAGOONDOO"][quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="FLICKTHEBEAN"]Wow, the differences in h-soma damage and D-soma damage effect the 3rd aura so much, that's crazy, but as stated my problems and suggestions relate to H-soma and I believe changes must be made on H-soma. [/quote]
Maybe we could do something similar to Axe, but the other way around. Buff 3rd/5th for hsoma only.
Just throwing a random idea out there.[/quote]
No, I don't think that's a good idea.
Devils have higher damage, sure, but Hojo's level is around high 70s, maybe early 80s. Also with an Epic FINAL-tier Spear of course he's going to hit like a truck.
Then there is also the fact that Devils have much less HP than Humans, so 25% of his total health is a lot less than 25% of a Human's total health.
The end effect is probably the same.[/quote]
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#81 2014/03/21 14:51:41 |
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NEOXIAN |
I've quit the game because of personal issues right now and time commitments.. possibly won't be returning as the time commitment vs dsoma reward is very small. Spear has an incredible burst and is always fun to play with but as an all round class struggles to beat any other in a duel or dps race. Spear can't hit archers, can't hit knucklers, can't live with swords 5th damage, tbh at high 70s through to low 90s even axers will annihilate spear due to similar Dex but a speed weap and higher base weapon damage.
Right now spear has one aura that is viable to use. Even mages use more auras than us lol. Spear remains the only class which is weaker now than it was on esoma. The 100% heal and 150% heal was still shite. As said before give use something that works strong like sword but not the same. 125% f10 damage and 125% heal return on a 15 second cd.
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[quote="NEOXIAN"]I've quit the game because of personal issues right now and time commitments.. possibly won't be returning as the time commitment vs dsoma reward is very small. Spear has an incredible burst and is always fun to play with but as an all round class struggles to beat any other in a duel or dps race. Spear can't hit archers, can't hit knucklers, can't live with swords 5th damage, tbh at high 70s through to low 90s even axers will annihilate spear due to similar Dex but a speed weap and higher base weapon damage.
Right now spear has one aura that is viable to use. Even mages use more auras than us lol. Spear remains the only class which is weaker now than it was on esoma. The 100% heal and 150% heal was still shite.
As said before give use something that works strong like sword but not the same.
125% f10 damage and 125% heal return on a 15 second cd. [/quote]
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#82 2014/03/21 21:12:09 |
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HOJO |
"NEOXIAN"125% f10 damage and 125% heal return on a 15 second cd. That would still be shit imo. After considering the mechanics I think it needs to be a scalable hard hit like sword 5th which returns a high percentage of the damage dealt for me to even consider using it in PvP, by raising the attack and lowering the % healed it wouldn't make the heal OP for PvE, but gives me an aura which I wouldn't feel like I'm mugging myself by using instead of 2nd, which currently I do. By all means give humans higher heal %, it makes no odds in a PvP environment like wow really and if it is useful for them in PvE that's great, but the heal isn't the main attraction to me; I just think a good, scalable, hard hitting aura is fitting to the attributes of the high damage dealt/received style of play spear lends itself to... That and I don't want to feel tied to 2nd as my only viable option for every situation.
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[quote="HOJO"][quote="NEOXIAN"]125% f10 damage and 125% heal return on a 15 second cd. [/quote]
That would still be shit imo. After considering the mechanics I think it needs to be a scalable hard hit like sword 5th which returns a high percentage of the damage dealt for me to even consider using it in PvP, by raising the attack and lowering the % healed it wouldn't make the heal OP for PvE, but gives me an aura which I wouldn't feel like I'm mugging myself by using instead of 2nd, which currently I do. By all means give humans higher heal %, it makes no odds in a PvP environment like wow really and if it is useful for them in PvE that's great, but the heal isn't the main attraction to me; I just think a good, scalable, hard hitting aura is fitting to the attributes of the high damage dealt/received style of play spear lends itself to... That and I don't want to feel tied to 2nd as my only viable option for every situation.[/quote]
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#83 2014/03/22 08:16:45 |
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NEOXIAN |
Think about it hojo, were poke not sword and we need to keep with the spear intentions which was a tanky burst class with 'survivability' auras. Isylver isn't going to give us 5th sword.
You hit for 225 damage to an equal levelled 79 character, 225 * 125% means your hit will land for roughly 285 (+60) and you will heal yourself in a fuel for 285. Net damage is 570. Far superior to 2nd in duel format. This will hit twice in 30 seconds meaning you will do an additional 120 damage overall, but over 30 seconds 2nd would have hit an additional time (10 sec) so that would be 230 damage. 2nd is currently +110 raw damage but you've also gained 570 hp... Seems pretty strong to me. Could make it 130% damage and 120% heal but anything above that is far too strong for a 5th overhaul.
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[quote="NEOXIAN"]Think about it hojo, were poke not sword and we need to keep with the spear intentions which was a tanky burst class with 'survivability' auras. Isylver isn't going to give us 5th sword.
You hit for 225 damage to an equal levelled 79 character,
225 * 125% means your hit will land for roughly 285 (+60) and you will heal yourself in a fuel for 285. Net damage is 570. Far superior to 2nd in duel format.
This will hit twice in 30 seconds meaning you will do an additional 120 damage overall, but over 30 seconds 2nd would have hit an additional time (10 sec) so that would be 230 damage. 2nd is currently +110 raw damage but you've also gained 570 hp...
Seems pretty strong to me. Could make it 130% damage and 120% heal but anything above that is far too strong for a 5th overhaul.[/quote]
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#84 2014/03/22 09:16:59 |
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HOJO |
"NEOXIAN"You hit for 225 damage to an equal levelled 79 character, Put down the crack pipe son; your numbers are utter bullshit. I would hit myself for 89-162. Try again. |
#85 2014/03/22 10:30:39 |
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GHOSTLORD |
"HOJO""NEOXIAN"125% f10 damage and 125% heal return on a 15 second cd. I'm sorry but 3rd/5th spear main point shouldn't be damage. What you're saying here sounds more like a complaints about 4th spear (rightfully so - but a different topic) or as someone who picked the wrong class.
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[quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="HOJO"][quote="NEOXIAN"]125% f10 damage and 125% heal return on a 15 second cd. [/quote]
That would still be shit imo. After considering the mechanics I think it needs to be a scalable hard hit like sword 5th which returns a high percentage of the damage dealt for me to even consider using it in PvP, by raising the attack and lowering the % healed it wouldn't make the heal OP for PvE, but gives me an aura which I wouldn't feel like I'm mugging myself by using instead of 2nd, which currently I do. By all means give humans higher heal %, it makes no odds in a PvP environment like wow really and if it is useful for them in PvE that's great, but the heal isn't the main attraction to me; I just think a good, scalable, hard hitting aura is fitting to the attributes of the high damage dealt/received style of play spear lends itself to... That and I don't want to feel tied to 2nd as my only viable option for every situation.[/quote]
I'm sorry but 3rd/5th spear main point shouldn't be damage. What you're saying here sounds more like a complaints about 4th spear (rightfully so - but a different topic) or as someone who picked the wrong class.
[/quote]
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#86 2014/03/22 11:02:29 |
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HOJO |
"GHOSTLORD" As I said in an earlier post, I knew 2nd spear was all I would use when I rolled so I was prepared for that. I enjoy playing spear and have no intention of re-rolling; I was merely giving my opinion on what would have to change in order for me, personally, to want to use 5th aura over 2nd. From a PvE perspective, I still would say high DPS is king - hence 2nd is all I would use - because the longer something is alive the more it can hit me, but I see your point; if 4th was my big PvP damage dealer then, you're absolutely right, I would be much less concerned with 3rd & 5th dealing low damage on a long cooldown.
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[quote="HOJO"][quote="GHOSTLORD"]
I'm sorry but 3rd/5th spear main point shouldn't be damage. What you're saying here sounds more like a complaints about 4th spear (rightfully so - but a different topic) or as someone who picked the wrong class.
[/quote]
As I said in an earlier post, I knew 2nd spear was all I would use when I rolled so I was prepared for that. I enjoy playing spear and have no intention of re-rolling; I was merely giving my opinion on what would have to change in order for me, personally, to want to use 5th aura over 2nd.
From a PvE perspective, I still would say high DPS is king - hence 2nd is all I would use - because the longer something is alive the more it can hit me, but I see your point; if 4th was my big PvP damage dealer then, you're absolutely right, I would be much less concerned with 3rd & 5th dealing low damage on a long cooldown.[/quote]
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#87 2014/03/22 11:25:06 |
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NEOXIAN |
interesting figures hojo, i'm roughly 5 levels lower than you and hit myself for 126-199 lol. that's including 2 pieces of epic invul o.O
knux, sword(not so much), axe and mage all have massively less con. suggest you go hit the dummy a little bit and deduct your defense and you'll be interested to see the average lol your estimated 5 lvls means you've gained an extra 17 strength, and 12 con and 12 spear skill which with our weapon is roughly 5-8 so you're damage/con ratio has just increased on my listed figures by ROUGHLY down to your level assumption being 79/80 11-14 damage which added on to mine is 137-213 damage. now I admit using maximum hit as an example was perhaps not ideal but as in regard to max attack I had a pretty good estimate without doing any number crunching whatsoever. now, back on track because you've seemingly got a wish to roll a swordsman. spear wont ever get that aura. we are dmg+health. the problem with this server is that weapon damage with the tag and skill system is so massive that lvl 80s are 4 hitting each other which means 3rd and 5th are useless because you gain no advantage to it, if defence of devils was raised a bit then archers etc would take longer to kill, and the survivability of 3rd and 5th would be exacerbated back to esoma. in its current state of dsoma pvp the aura is useless as is. what im proposing is to keep the core ability as it is a health transfer spell, but increase it to match the damage/defence ratio of this server which by increasing it to 125% and 125% for damage and heal would slot it into a balance. The thing you're failing to see hojo is that 2nd is the most powerful aura ingame, and the more you pipe on about how good It is the more likely it will be nerfed like knuckle and the time increased. quick fixes that could be tested! 4th range 2 and hits 2 targets like 2nd. (would be a start but still pretty useless) all spear auras to be range 2 and hit in any direction 3rd to be 110% weapon damage and 110% heal on a 15 second cooldown, 5th to be 130% damage and 120% heal on 15 second cooldown. seems like these are non gamebreaking but will make spear more complete.
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[quote="NEOXIAN"]interesting figures hojo, i'm roughly 5 levels lower than you and hit myself for 126-199 lol. that's including 2 pieces of epic invul o.O
knux, sword(not so much), axe and mage all have massively less con.
suggest you go hit the dummy a little bit and deduct your defense and you'll be interested to see the average lol
your estimated 5 lvls means you've gained an extra 17 strength, and 12 con and 12 spear skill which with our weapon is roughly 5-8 so you're damage/con ratio has just increased on my listed figures by ROUGHLY down to your level assumption being 79/80 11-14 damage which added on to mine is 137-213 damage.
now I admit using maximum hit as an example was perhaps not ideal but as in regard to max attack I had a pretty good estimate without doing any number crunching whatsoever.
now, back on track because you've seemingly got a wish to roll a swordsman.
spear wont ever get that aura. we are dmg+health.
the problem with this server is that weapon damage with the tag and skill system is so massive that lvl 80s are 4 hitting each other which means 3rd and 5th are useless because you gain no advantage to it, if defence of devils was raised a bit then archers etc would take longer to kill, and the survivability of 3rd and 5th would be exacerbated back to esoma.
in its current state of dsoma pvp the aura is useless as is. what im proposing is to keep the core ability as it is a health transfer spell, but increase it to match the damage/defence ratio of this server which by increasing it to 125% and 125% for damage and heal would slot it into a balance.
The thing you're failing to see hojo is that 2nd is the most powerful aura ingame, and the more you pipe on about how good It is the more likely it will be nerfed like knuckle and the time increased.
quick fixes that could be tested! 4th range 2 and hits 2 targets like 2nd. (would be a start but still pretty useless)
all spear auras to be range 2 and hit in any direction
3rd to be 110% weapon damage and 110% heal on a 15 second cooldown, 5th to be 130% damage and 120% heal on 15 second cooldown.
seems like these are non gamebreaking but will make spear more complete.[/quote]
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#88 2014/03/22 11:36:04 |
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HOJO |
There are a few things wrong with this
"NEOXIAN"interesting figures hojo, i'm roughly 5 levels lower than you and hit myself for 126-199 lol. that's including 2 pieces of epic invul o.O I seriously doubt you could 3 hit yourself. I suggest you look at your max attack and your min defence and do the basic subtraction involved. "NEOXIAN"now, back on track because you've seemingly got a wish to roll a swordsman. "HOJO"As I said in an earlier post, I knew 2nd spear was all I would use when I rolled so I was prepared for that. I enjoy playing spear and have no intention of re-rolling; I was merely giving my opinion on what would have to change in order for me, personally, to want to use 5th aura over 2nd. I think that addresses that. ***EDIT: ADDED*** "NEOXIAN"if defence of devils was raised a bit then archers etc would take longer to kill... Show me any archer my level that doesn't hand my ass to me 10 times out of 10 and I might consider the possibility there might be some validity to this point. Currently archers have the highest con, the highest dex, and dodge aura, so I don't really understand where you're coming from here. I am barely beating some archers much lower than me in duels as it is, even with my "powerful" 2nd aura, which brings me to the next point "NEOXIAN"The thing you're failing to see hojo is that 2nd is the most powerful aura ingame, and the more you pipe on about how good It is the more likely it will be nerfed like knuckle and the time increased. I don't fail to see that at all, I fully recognise that, as you will tell by my piping on about it. If part of the solution to this aura "fix" is to nerf 2nd a bit to keep the game more balanced, then so be it. But as I just stated, without it as it currently is I would be all but screwed in 1v1 PvP against any other class at all. If it is better for the game as a whole that 2nd is reduced to a normal hit and an extra second or 2 is added to the cooldown then I'm happy to take a the hit, and it would probably still be favourable to the current 3rd/5th, but there is a lot to consider so balancing these things isn't an easy task. Considering I'm the only active high level spear on DSoma I can think of, I doubt it would help spear population matters to nerf though. ***/EDIT*** Now for the things I agree with "NEOXIAN"quick fixes that could be tested! 4th range 2 and hits 2 targets like 2nd. (would be a start but still pretty useless) Not too sure on 4th hitting 2 targets, because I do find it a bit of a chore positioning myself to not hit guildies at GVW sometimes, but at least it seems to be agreed on that something needs to be done there, and increasing the power of 5th and lowering the cooldown, as per your suggestion, sounds good to me.
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[quote="HOJO"]There are a few things wrong with this
[quote="NEOXIAN"]interesting figures hojo, i'm roughly 5 levels lower than you and hit myself for 126-199 lol. that's including 2 pieces of epic invul o.O
knux, sword(not so much), axe and mage all have massively less con.
suggest you go hit the dummy a little bit and deduct your defense and you'll be interested to see the average lol
[/quote]
I seriously doubt you could 3 hit yourself. I suggest you look at your max attack and your min defence and do the basic subtraction involved.
[quote="NEOXIAN"]now, back on track because you've seemingly got a wish to roll a swordsman.
spear wont ever get that aura. we are dmg+health.[/quote]
[quote="HOJO"]As I said in an earlier post, I knew 2nd spear was all I would use when I rolled so I was prepared for that. I enjoy playing spear and have no intention of re-rolling; I was merely giving my opinion on what would have to change in order for me, personally, to want to use 5th aura over 2nd.[/quote]
I think that addresses that.
***EDIT: ADDED***
[quote="NEOXIAN"]if defence of devils was raised a bit then archers etc would take longer to kill...[/quote]
Show me any archer my level that doesn't hand my ass to me 10 times out of 10 and I might consider the possibility there might be some validity to this point. Currently archers have the highest con, the highest dex, and dodge aura, so I don't really understand where you're coming from here. I am barely beating some archers much lower than me in duels as it is, even with my "powerful" 2nd aura, which brings me to the next point
[quote="NEOXIAN"]The thing you're failing to see hojo is that 2nd is the most powerful aura ingame, and the more you pipe on about how good It is the more likely it will be nerfed like knuckle and the time increased.[/quote]
I don't fail to see that at all, I fully recognise that, as you will tell by my piping on about it. If part of the solution to this aura "fix" is to nerf 2nd a bit to keep the game more balanced, then so be it. But as I just stated, without it as it currently is I would be all but screwed in 1v1 PvP against any other class at all. If it is better for the game as a whole that 2nd is reduced to a normal hit and an extra second or 2 is added to the cooldown then I'm happy to take a the hit, and it would probably still be favourable to the current 3rd/5th, but there is a lot to consider so balancing these things isn't an easy task. Considering I'm the only active high level spear on DSoma I can think of, I doubt it would help spear population matters to nerf though.
***/EDIT***
Now for the things I agree with
[quote="NEOXIAN"]quick fixes that could be tested! 4th range 2 and hits 2 targets like 2nd. (would be a start but still pretty useless)
all spear auras to be range 2 and hit in any direction
3rd to be 110% weapon damage and 110% heal on a 15 second cooldown, 5th to be 130% damage and 120% heal on 15 second cooldown.
seems like these are non gamebreaking but will make spear more complete.[/quote]
Not too sure on 4th hitting 2 targets, because I do find it a bit of a chore positioning myself to not hit guildies at GVW sometimes, but at least it seems to be agreed on that something needs to be done there, and increasing the power of 5th and lowering the cooldown, as per your suggestion, sounds good to me.[/quote]
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#89 2014/03/22 11:50:38 |
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FLICKTHEBEAN |
From reading through, it seems that the changes for dsoma and hsoma will have to be different.
In hsoma I cannot even hunt the same teir mob as the other two STR classes due to lack of defence. I also heard that a Gargoyle shield is 6-20defence alone so at 107str a spear class potentially has 22-36 less defence than an axer (if the axer chose to use PD not 4th). Thats the difference in quite a few teirs of monsters resulting in spear class under-hunting and using a lot more EXP per stat. I believe that a 3rd/5th with the same cooldown as 2nd would negate this somewhat. The results of such as I can see if would be: Under-hunting, in all likelyhood you'd not need many, if any pots, unless mobbed, an axer would be taking minimum damage anyway. Swords also have the benefits of faster weapons (so faster kills) and defence from shield so pretty much on-par on all classes. Over-hunting spear would still be at a disadvantage to the axe, but possibly on-par with sword (unless mobbed). This could in all likelyhood make spear a viable class PvE. It is only PvE I'm commenting on as all classes should have the ability to hunt the same monsters at the same stats. I've spent a lot of time training my dex to over-compensate for the lack of defence, however it doesn't seem to have helped in the way I imagined. Changes on D-soma, as always, I cannot comment on, though reading through it seems that they do not have the complains about PvE so much as PvP.
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[quote="FLICKTHEBEAN"]From reading through, it seems that the changes for dsoma and hsoma will have to be different.
In hsoma I cannot even hunt the same teir mob as the other two STR classes due to lack of defence. I also heard that a Gargoyle shield is 6-20defence alone so at 107str a spear class potentially has 22-36 less defence than an axer (if the axer chose to use PD not 4th). Thats the difference in quite a few teirs of monsters resulting in spear class under-hunting and using a lot more EXP per stat.
I believe that a 3rd/5th with the same cooldown as 2nd would negate this somewhat. The results of such as I can see if would be:
Under-hunting, in all likelyhood you'd not need many, if any pots, unless mobbed, an axer would be taking minimum damage anyway. Swords also have the benefits of faster weapons (so faster kills) and defence from shield so pretty much on-par on all classes.
Over-hunting spear would still be at a disadvantage to the axe, but possibly on-par with sword (unless mobbed). This could in all likelyhood make spear a viable class PvE. It is only PvE I'm commenting on as all classes should have the ability to hunt the same monsters at the same stats.
I've spent a lot of time training my dex to over-compensate for the lack of defence, however it doesn't seem to have helped in the way I imagined.
Changes on D-soma, as always, I cannot comment on, though reading through it seems that they do not have the complains about PvE so much as PvP.[/quote]
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#90 2014/03/24 20:20:31 |
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