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[quote="STRELKA"]I did a little bit of testing (with huge thanks to Jaheira) of the dsoma stat system on the test server - and here is a video of it. I will do much more extensive testing (many variants, many classes) if there is an appetite for this, but I wanted to see if this garners any attention or GM feedback first. [url=https://youtu.be/lp7zdb5CBGE] PTR Testing [/url] ****[EDIT]**** I just realised in the second clip I put 290 STR/210 CON bow v 290 STR spear, not 290 CON/210 STR bow. The right clips shows 3 hits and a 4th (the same as the sword - which makes sense as they have the same stats and gear). TL;DR - STR is too high and CON is too low. If you max STR it overpowers max CON. Both Auras and white hits do far too much damage. Everyone will be 3 hitting each other on live and it will be a disaster. ----- THE PROBLEM: By unlocking the stats, you allow players to max or minimise any they want. Given that there are currently only a few mages in game and by far the biggest threat to pking and pvping are melee classes, we can fully expect players to ignore wis/int stats. This will also be significantly faster to level with. Therefore, the only way to play in this patch is to hold down either STR (or INT) till it is maxed, and then think about how to survive now you have the ability to 3 or 4 hit anyone in the game. There is no reason to give up damage and attack in favour of avoidance or damage mitigation, because it does not compete at all. PK: PK is going to be a disaster. Those who enjoy it (especially archers) will be 100% able to deny people leveling or playing, by hitting them for 25% of their hp every second. Similarly, when devils pvp in groups, everyone will be unable to pot any 2 devils hitting them - regardless of their con or auras. PVP will therefore be terrible. In the video, a max str 5th sword hits a max con spear user for >60% of their hp. There will be no defence or survivability...only deaths on every aura CD. Bosses: They will only make this worse. Let's say you need to dump at least 80 points into WIS to make a boss pottable, that only depowers your character to the point where you get absolutely destroyed by pkers or level much slower. The only way that players will do this is if there is no pking at bosses, but that does not happen and there will be people who prey on this. Plus who will respec int/wis for a long period of much weaker leveling or pvping only for a 5 minute bossfight on a random spawn? Mana: Initially I thought I would need to put points in wisdom to generate mana, to allow me to use auras - but with 5 wisdom I can still run 2nd all the time, and just need to pop 1 mana pot per 2 4th bow auras. Therefore my int/wis stay at 5. GVW: GVW is going to be a catastrophe like this. We tested with an axer using a full tank set (so much higher def than base intense invul, with 2nd axe, with an upgraded shield, with max con and str) and the 290 str archer 8 hit the axer. On present the same comparison has the archer doing min damage (around 8-10 per hit). GVW will be completely untankable and every single player on the stone will last less than 5 seconds if there are 10+ devils there. This event thus becomes pointless, as it will just by a mad cycling of players on and off the stone until 1 wins at 8:59:30 due to death timer. At present there is no reason to go maximum CON because it buys you hardly any survivability, but there is no reason not to be maximum STR. In terms of class balance it clearly leaves some classes better than others when it comes to speccing high stats. -- SUGGESTIONS: Stats need to be rebalanced, or capped. This much is clear, but how? Possibly the caps need to be lowered to 280 or 250, so as aproprtion of devil health pools or armour values, attacks are less powerful. or CON needs to have a much higher max value than STR, or give a huge amount of bonus HP. or Allow players to customise within only a set range, and only with limited stat points. If, say, an Archer had to be 200-240 STR, and 160-200 DEX range then they can adjust but not break the game. Similarly if an axer has to be 250-290 STR but 100-140 DEX. This could be achieved by much more pervasive minimum requirements on weapons. ---- What do people think? What suggestions do you have? I think the GMs should be given some advice from player testers. Personally I would not like to play a version of Soma where I can spec 290 CON and be taken to 10% hp by a 290 STR spear 2nd and hit. [/quote]

[quote="CCHRONER"]May not be a quick fix or an easy thing to do but what about new armors (if there isn't any already?) with more defense? Will help people getting 2-3 shot but obviously something needs to be done with stats[/quote]

[quote="KEKKET"]ive done axe spear mage knux and seems to me that mage can tank a fair bit of dmg but also 1 hits any1 tho this is how i would do my builds on any chars max out str last weap dex other points in con for mage its max int 230 con and the rest in wisdom. its all build to survive on dsoma i cant imagine how its gonna work out for rvr, I`d love to test RVR but i dont know any human tht well.[/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"][quote="KEKKET"]ive done axe spear mage knux and seems to me that mage can tank a fair bit of dmg but also 1 hits any1 tho this is how i would do my builds on any chars max out str last weap dex other points in con for mage its max int 230 con and the rest in wisdom. its all build to survive on dsoma i cant imagine how its gonna work out for rvr, I`d love to test RVR but i dont know any human tht well.[/quote] We did testing with mages too, and I will include it in videos if I make another. A mage can make themselves 3 or 4 times more tanky than on the live server and still either 90% people with weaken or a proc cast. In short, they do the same damage as currently (capping anyone who didnt pure punch, even those who punched to omni) but can survive much much more. Having said that, when you go pure widsom and md armour you can reduce their damage from 40-45% per hit to about 15-20% which is a big difference. In RvR that means you could make devils that take almost no damage from the strongest human mages in the game. [/quote]

[quote="KEKKET"]also need to point out 4th staff dosnt work on test it casts but still cant cast spells when its on.[/quote]

[quote="JAHEIRA"][quote="FINITO"][quote="KEKKET"]also need to point out 4th staff dosnt work on test it casts but still cant cast spells when its on.[/quote] Works on Live?[/quote] also to point put that axe 4th seems to have slowed down, my B spd spear was faster than axe with 4th active I'm still like lazarus suggestion [quote="LAZARUS"]The stat system will always have problems if you leave stats uncapped as people will feel the need to put as much as possible into their main stat with little room for elsewhere making characters serverly gimped in other aspects which will have issues at events like WotW. If str/con was capped at 160~200 and dex 100~150 it'd give more points to put into more unnecessary stats. Say an axer could have a max of; 200 Str 100 Dex 180 Con with 234 points for Int and Wis. While an archer's max stats could look more like; 165 Str 145 Dex 170 Con also leaving 234 points for int and wis. The problem now is you have too many points left over. This can all go into Wis, which in itself, is a huge problem having characters running around with 200 Wis would be an obvious no go. If the Int/Wis cap for Melee classes is around 130, then you'd have 130 wis, 104 int. If old armour values are restored, this leaves more than enough for Omniscient Int gear. You could incentivise Int / Str (the offclass stat) by making it provide an additional bonuses like increased regeneration and so on, but may be more coding and a hassle to do so. You can also make a leeway of say around -10 to +10 to allow people to "customize" their characters a bit more to fit their personal style. Now you may be thinking i'm completely insane. Lower stats on Devil's will surely ruin Wotw and other RvR events. But if Devil stats are tonned down, the main offender being Dex, then this means the WotW % and such could go higher, maybe even 100%, as Humans would be able to hit even the Dexiest of Dsoma classes also this then means that Devil's effectively gain more magic defense as well, so all in all it'd be a win for Humans because they can now hit all Dsoma, making it feel like their investment into Dex is paying off, and Dsoma will be able to tank Magic better with having higher Wis and also Omniscient gear avaible. But without actual testing and so on, small tweaks may be necessary still. But then if RvR is always 100%, what's the incentive to attending/winning WotW? If stat percentage isn't a factor anymore, you could make it increase Stat/drop rates globally or in conti only as an increased reasoning to hunt in conti. For example it could look something like this; 1 Win = 2.5% Increased Drops/Stats 2 Wins = 5% Increased Drops/Stats and so on. For Dsoma mages, there is a small problem with stat allocation if you want all characters to hit a maximum stat. If the stat requirements for armours are reverted, then it isn't so bad for them but as it stands. But with a few simple calcuations they would require some extra points to achieve capping stats and being able to equip Invuln. If a Mages max stats looked something like; 150 Str 115 Dex 150 Con 200 Int 200 Wis Then currently if you cap with enough str for Invuln you end up looking like; 104 Str 115 Dex 150 Con 200 Int 174 Wis For Supreme their stats would look like; 84 Str 115 Dex 150 Con 200 Int 194 Wis Ideally giving mages 26 extra points with say 2 every 10 levels and an extra 6 would solve this issue as there is no real need atm for mages to go over 104 Str. Either way i've tried my best express my opinion and give a general idea as to why i think a lower stat cap would benefit Dsoma / Hsoma if this system is to go through. [/quote] limiting us so we have spare points left to allocate int/wis, a little lea way on the caps to let ppl play about with dex/ con ect (everyone will cap there str) [/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"][quote="FINITO"] Well could put back the class specific maximum stat values. Armors should not be an issue with that in place anymore as the requirements are now Con and Wis and have been reduced (are the requirements now too low though?). [/quote] The main issue we found is simply that as soon as people are allowed to put 290 STR on their character, nothing can defend this damage value. That's only exacerbated by the subsequent highly damaging auras and ranged classes. The way dsoma is on live servers is boring and stale (everyone identical stats, everyone doing the same dmg to each other with small variance for gear) but if the difference between 210 and 290 CON is surviving 1 more hit then it isn't worth using. In group PVP and GVW it will not matter if you get 2 hit and 5th'd by a sword or 3 hit and 5th'd, people will be dying instantly everywhere when the situation involves more people than 1v1. Over the weekend I can do much more comprehensive stuff with many classes/setups - but the most scary for me is that on live it takes something like 35 hits for my character to kill our GVW tank in full tank gear, on the test server I can do it in 8. [edit] +1 to something like Lazarus's suggestion. Maintaining something of the uniqueness of each class would be nice, as well as lowering values to a point where people can survive more. Having said that, I still know that the first thing any class will do (other than some kind of int proc knuckler or bow) would be the hold down STR as far as it will go and then consider other stats. [/quote]

[quote="KEKKET"][quote="FINITO"][quote="KEKKET"]also need to point out 4th staff dosnt work on test it casts but still cant cast spells when its on.[/quote] Works on Live?[/quote] it did yes[/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"][quote="FINITO"] That is just because can get the maximum Str, right, and don't have that on your character on live? [/quote] On live I have much higher STR than most archers because I punched more than 15 levels, but I still do minimum damage to a capped STR Axer with very good +def armour, 2nd aura, a def pot and a shield. Same gear setup on PTR for both classes - but I have 290 STR, 210 DEX, 210 CON while he has 290 CON/290 STR/maximum points left in DEX - and I kill him in 8 hits and not 50. You can see how this looks on live at a GVW when a small number of devils are attacking said tank on the stone while everyone is on 100%: https://youtu.be/n0YJIKmv0E8?t=167 . DGVW's regularly have twice the number of players from outside our guild than this example. You can also see why nobody would put points in wis and int - there are no mages really, and they cap us all on our natural wis anyway so its the same damage as if we put 5 or 100 points in wis. And let's not even talk about the instant death warrant a zombie proc would be under such sustained damage, it's bad enough on live. I can maybe give certain numbers and info (exact def, attack, number of hits) at some point soon if there is interest. [/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"][quote="FINITO"] Yeah so that is because got 70+ more str by giving it 290 with stat point system. With the class specific maximum guide values for stats wouldn't be able to get 290 but only 210 str as an archer (level 100).[/quote] Yes. Something like that - a small range of options in STR/DEX/CON set around similar mandatory values that exist currently in the game would remove this issue of letting everyone get maximum STR as present on the PTR. What those values might be, and how much freedom people would have to increase/decrease them would be interesting to discuss. The only point of this thread is that I feel that permitting people the ability to completely ignore int/wis and to have free range with str would lead to very poor gameplay. I'm sure this is already known, of course! Over the weekend I can try multiple characters with those stat guidelines and see how it plays out for very high gear levels if anyone would like to see the resulting summary in a video. [/quote]