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PUTIN |
"STRELKA""PUTIN"Exactly, hsoma has alot more user count so they can get away with dealing less damage to each other and be able to kill in pvp /swap GVW stone more often, devils have always dealt higher damage to each other (until broken axers last 2 years) Most classes currently die to a 2v1 with well timed auras+ hits landing /after zombie procs, you were agreeing that people should be able to die in a 2v2/3v3 in an earlier post with coordination this is no different. 17hits for swordy to kill axer, 12hits for archer to kill a knux (without dodge), 13hits for a spear user to kill an archer (again without dodge), this is exactly the type of damage needed for a co-ordinated 2v2/3v3 to get kills among each other, axer dies in 11 hits to archer due to hit rate which does seem quite low, but axer damage/hit rate also has a huge increase this patch Yes I watched the videos he's out potting a 3v1 even with the lowest Dex ingame so every shot is landing, other less tanky classes would have the Dex to avoid more hits making it similar to outpot I'd imagine
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[quote="PUTIN"][quote="STRELKA"][quote="PUTIN"]Exactly, hsoma has alot more user count so they can get away with dealing less damage to each other and be able to kill in pvp /swap GVW stone more often, devils have always dealt higher damage to each other (until broken axers last 2 years)
17 hits in that video for a geared swordy to kill a geared axer is more than enough, if they are to get a further con boost it should be at a massive loss of attack, why should a class be allowed to take hardly any damage and also deal huge damage? (with a massive hit rate aswell with Dex changes / accuracy )
Atleast with the new str/con changes this could be done quite easily, axers stay almost as tanky as live, but with 100 max str- if that[/quote]
Did you even watch the 3rd video?
I'm all for giving dsoma axers less damage at the expense of more tankiness, but the point is not just the GVW stone. It's that if 3 well geared melee can do that to the tankiest character in dsoma then imagine what 3 characters will do to an average sword/spear/knux user (who have to be in melee to fight).
Even 2 will be unpottable damage, which - in a second - kills pvp and proper pk fights.
Like this pvp = running or instantly dying. Everyone will run and the game is bring as hell. [/quote]
Most classes currently die to a 2v1 with well timed auras+ hits landing /after zombie procs, you were agreeing that people should be able to die in a 2v2/3v3 in an earlier post with coordination this is no different.
17hits for swordy to kill axer, 12hits for archer to kill a knux (without dodge), 13hits for a spear user to kill an archer (again without dodge), this is exactly the type of damage needed for a co-ordinated 2v2/3v3 to get kills among each other, axer dies in 11 hits to archer due to hit rate which does seem quite low, but axer damage/hit rate also has a huge increase this patch
Yes I watched the videos he's out potting a 3v1 even with the lowest Dex ingame so every shot is landing, other less tanky classes would have the Dex to avoid more hits making it similar to outpot I'd imagine
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#31 2017/12/10 22:56:25 |
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YAREYAREDAZE |
and now what do you think an 8v8 or 10v10 fight will be like, or gvw, if the tankiest axer in the game can barely outpot 3 ppl?
will be funny as hell, and probs alot of fun initially don't get me wrong. But kills will feel unrewarding and require no coordination, and people will get extremely bored by it.
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[quote="YAREYAREDAZE"]and now what do you think an 8v8 or 10v10 fight will be like, or gvw, if the tankiest axer in the game can barely outpot 3 ppl?
will be funny as hell, and probs alot of fun initially don't get me wrong. But kills will feel unrewarding and require no coordination, and people will get extremely bored by it.
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#32 2017/12/11 00:39:18 |
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STRELKA |
"PUTIN"[ - Putin - Cocaine and Putin - Putin - Cocaine You think you, or whoever was on Putin, will be able to last anything close to this if the test server stat allocations go live? heh
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[quote="STRELKA"][quote="PUTIN"][
Most classes currently die to a 2v1 with well timed auras+ hits landing /after zombie procs, you were agreeing that people should be able to die in a 2v2/3v3 in an earlier post with coordination this is no different.
[/quote]
[url=https://youtu.be/d8wI0aAuzC8?t=472] - Putin [/url]
[url=https://youtu.be/wxByulVWiVU?t=284] - Cocaine and Putin [/url]
[url=https://youtu.be/O7nfjnIgPxI?t=230] - Putin [/url]
[url=https://youtu.be/wxByulVWiVU?t=466] - Cocaine [/url]
You think you, or whoever was on Putin, will be able to last anything close to this if the test server stat allocations go live?
heh[/quote]
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#33 2017/12/11 10:17:57 |
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PUTIN |
Unsure what gear or levels you guys have in that video but I currently take about the same amount of damage on live 3vs1 against your guild.
Its just about possible to out-pot deimos / bl00d/ yare, and two don't have attacking auras Think gms need more testing (not from you) before deciding on buffing classes, Coven whispered in gm's ears a few years back and had them convinced axers were "balanced" that's why we've been stuck with MythOfAxers for the last 2 years Let's not have a repeat please - _- Having one guild doing mainly all the "testing" we will have just what happened before where they talk gm's into "balancing" the game around them so they benefit rather than making the game balanced for all
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[quote="PUTIN"]Unsure what gear or levels you guys have in that video but I currently take about the same amount of damage on live 3vs1 against your guild.
Its just about possible to out-pot deimos / bl00d/ yare, and two don't have attacking auras
Think gms need more testing (not from you) before deciding on buffing classes, Coven whispered in gm's ears a few years back and had them convinced axers were "balanced" that's why we've been stuck with MythOfAxers for the last 2 years
Let's not have a repeat please - _-
Having one guild doing mainly all the "testing" we will have just what happened before where they talk gm's into "balancing" the game around them so they benefit rather than making the game balanced for all[/quote]
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#34 2017/12/11 12:36:13 |
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MERLIN |
Feel free to help them out and record bits yourself? You can see in his vids he scrolls over his items in f10 to prove they’re base stats, and a lot of that testing was against jah/melk/kek all of whom are in encore anyway, that’s arguably the 2 biggest guilds in dsoma atm in terms of active numbers
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[quote="MERLIN"]Feel free to help them out and record bits yourself? You can see in his vids he scrolls over his items in f10 to prove they’re base stats, and a lot of that testing was against jah/melk/kek all of whom are in encore anyway, that’s arguably the 2 biggest guilds in dsoma atm in terms of active numbers[/quote]
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#35 2017/12/11 13:01:11 |
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STRELKA |
"PUTIN"Unsure what gear or levels you guys have in that video but I currently take about the same amount of damage on live 3vs1 against your guild. Well have fun with that when the current build on PTR goes live. If you say Yare/Deim/Bl00d is only just pottable on live, I can promise you that it won't be on test (hence we did the test with kekket). As it stands, the PTR has you much much weaker in terms of defence, and those axers have a ton more effective dex (before their accuracy is even calculated) on you while doing about the same relative damage. bl00d will now have much closer defence to you than he does on live, but much more attack relative to live. Now maybe you agree with us that we would like to see con go up across the board? Even before we discuss class balance and dex issues.
Firstly, I actually fully agree with you. I do not like the fact that people can try monopolise the attention of the GMs and swing the testign in their way. It would suck for a guild with no mages to try and destroy them, or one with a ton of bows (or swords) to try and argue that they weren't OP if they were. That's why I try to be as transparent as possible by making videos that show gear and attack and defence values. The point of this thread is not to manipulate GMs at all, but to go 'look, here is what class balance looks like using every class on test server....what do people think?'. It's just a real shame that nobody except Jaheira and yourself have actually bought into discussing these issues. The ideal outcome would be GMs testing themselves with basic gear and then a spawned set of optimal upgraded gear and seeing how they feel. On this I agree, But there are 3 days till release now and no interest in this 3 or 4 day old thread that is basically saying 'its the shared view of 6 or 7 people who tested extensively that this will be a bad idea to go live with everyone so fragile'.
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[quote="STRELKA"][quote="PUTIN"]Unsure what gear or levels you guys have in that video but I currently take about the same amount of damage on live 3vs1 against your guild.
Its just about possible to out-pot deimos / bl00d/ yare, and two don't have attacking auras [/quote]
Well have fun with that when the current build on PTR goes live. If you say Yare/Deim/Bl00d is only just pottable on live, I can promise you that it won't be on test (hence we did the test with kekket).
As it stands, the PTR has you much much weaker in terms of defence, and those axers have a ton more effective dex (before their accuracy is even calculated) on you while doing about the same relative damage. bl00d will now have much closer defence to you than he does on live, but much more attack relative to live.
Now maybe you agree with us that we would like to see con go up across the board? Even before we discuss class balance and dex issues.
[quote]
Think gms need more testing (not from you) before deciding on buffing classes, Coven whispered in gm's ears a few years back and had them convinced axers were "balanced" that's why we've been stuck with MythOfAxers for the last 2 years
Let's not have a repeat please - _-
Having one guild doing mainly all the "testing" we will have just what happened before where they talk gm's into "balancing" the game around them so they benefit rather than making the game balanced for all[/quote]
Firstly, I actually fully agree with you. I do not like the fact that people can try monopolise the attention of the GMs and swing the testign in their way. It would suck for a guild with no mages to try and destroy them, or one with a ton of bows (or swords) to try and argue that they weren't OP if they were.
That's why I try to be as transparent as possible by making videos that show gear and attack and defence values. The point of this thread is not to manipulate GMs at all, but to go 'look, here is what class balance looks like using every class on test server....what do people think?'.
It's just a real shame that nobody except Jaheira and yourself have actually bought into discussing these issues.
The ideal outcome would be GMs testing themselves with basic gear and then a spawned set of optimal upgraded gear and seeing how they feel. On this I agree, But there are 3 days till release now and no interest in this 3 or 4 day old thread that is basically saying 'its the shared view of 6 or 7 people who tested extensively that this will be a bad idea to go live with everyone so fragile'.
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#36 2017/12/11 14:14:19 |
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PUTIN |
I agree with you on some points, last time I tested all classes had a 25 con increase across the board and Fin said this is how it was staying for release (maybe server reset undid this con change?).
My knux user dealt 54 dmg in equal gear to an axer per hit, then I check forum 2-3hours later and your suggesting axers need a 30-40" con increase, seemed crazy considering what I tested on previously, meaning my hits would do 14* damage a hit with such a con increase to axers, I feel lots more class balancing would be better before release, Dex changes along with accuracy have made axers hit rate huge compared to live while spears lack of STR has made the damage they deal seem awful - maybe Dex increase counters this tho? We're on the right track tho, the game is 10x more balanced than live and with fast and easy Stat cap changes this can be changed daily/weekly after launch with a lot of feedback until we find a real balance in classes
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[quote="PUTIN"]I agree with you on some points, last time I tested all classes had a 25 con increase across the board and Fin said this is how it was staying for release (maybe server reset undid this con change?).
My knux user dealt 54 dmg in equal gear to an axer per hit, then I check forum 2-3hours later and your suggesting axers need a 30-40" con increase, seemed crazy considering what I tested on previously, meaning my hits would do 14* damage a hit with such a con increase to axers,
I feel lots more class balancing would be better before release, Dex changes along with accuracy have made axers hit rate huge compared to live while spears lack of STR has made the damage they deal seem awful - maybe Dex increase counters this tho?
We're on the right track tho, the game is 10x more balanced than live and with fast and easy Stat cap changes this can be changed daily/weekly after launch with a lot of feedback until we find a real balance in classes
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#37 2017/12/11 14:53:23 |
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YAREYAREDAZE |
I agree that it appears the system is extremely flexible for changes post release putin, and that means i'm not too worried; a balance will definitely be found, where the majority of people are happy.
I just hope this balance isn't found only after some extremely salty posts on the general discussion board, which discourage a lot of returning players from sticking around. Dsomas usercount is extremely good at the moment, and it would be great to keep this momentum post release Now is the time we should be on the PTR discussing the current iteration, not 2-3 weeks after launch :( We could easily round up 5-10devils for another few hours of testing if GMs were available, with a bit of notice
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[quote="YAREYAREDAZE"]I agree that it appears the system is extremely flexible for changes post release putin, and that means i'm not too worried; a balance will definitely be found, where the majority of people are happy.
I just hope this balance isn't found only after some extremely salty posts on the general discussion board, which discourage a lot of returning players from sticking around. Dsomas usercount is extremely good at the moment, and it would be great to keep this momentum post release
Now is the time we should be on the PTR discussing the current iteration, not 2-3 weeks after launch :(
We could easily round up 5-10devils for another few hours of testing if GMs were available, with a bit of notice
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#38 2017/12/11 15:31:09 |
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STRELKA |
My understanding, and it's only what melk or jah told me after, was that he added con then took it off because it felt too much - and then we tested after that. I don't think you tested with the same STR v CON ratio shown on the f9 stats on the video.
I agree that it's close to being playable in terms of balance between classes, just everyone is getting hit too hard. Personally I would: - Add 40 con to axers, 40 to Spear, 25 to Sword (b/c shield option), 20 to Knux (b/c good dodge), 20 to Bow from the values tested in the videos. - Remove 10-15 STR from axers - Add a con soul to soul shop, add a con on access upgrade using emeralds or diamonds. - Think about new mob stats (and re-working existing ones like apai) so players can actually hunt them at 100+. With 190 STR archers will be jumping back to WBM when patch raises and may never need to use the new mobs. - Think how to stop abusive leveling, like making a melee character then sitting at 120 str and KL and never adding more STR so you get exp to cap. Or a mage that can level 30-100 just from aoe'ing KL by putting no points in INT. - Tune bosses to the new values of attack and MD. They can die much slower than currently, but if they 1 hit players? - Add (if not already) a pk town tp scroll, and a portal from pk town to hwan (currently only Pandi and Conti?). Maybe an anvil it angel town too? - Consider a balanced respec system - not too easy, not too hard. . What else do we think would be valuable? "YAREYAREDAZE" For example after GVW we could jump on test and try some group pvp with balanced numbers - if it was available.
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[quote="STRELKA"]My understanding, and it's only what melk or jah told me after, was that he added con then took it off because it felt too much - and then we tested after that. I don't think you tested with the same STR v CON ratio shown on the f9 stats on the video.
I agree that it's close to being playable in terms of balance between classes, just everyone is getting hit too hard.
Personally I would:
- Add 40 con to axers, 40 to Spear, 25 to Sword (b/c shield option), 20 to Knux (b/c good dodge), 20 to Bow from the values tested in the videos.
- Remove 10-15 STR from axers
- Add a con soul to soul shop, add a con on access upgrade using emeralds or diamonds.
- Think about new mob stats (and re-working existing ones like apai) so players can actually hunt them at 100+. With 190 STR archers will be jumping back to WBM when patch raises and may never need to use the new mobs.
- Think how to stop abusive leveling, like making a melee character then sitting at 120 str and KL and never adding more STR so you get exp to cap. Or a mage that can level 30-100 just from aoe'ing KL by putting no points in INT.
- Tune bosses to the new values of attack and MD. They can die much slower than currently, but if they 1 hit players?
- Add (if not already) a pk town tp scroll, and a portal from pk town to hwan (currently only Pandi and Conti?). Maybe an anvil it angel town too?
- Consider a balanced respec system - not too easy, not too hard. .
What else do we think would be valuable?
[quote="YAREYAREDAZE"]
We could easily round up 5-10devils for another few hours of testing if GMs were available, with a bit of notice
[/quote]
For example after GVW we could jump on test and try some group pvp with balanced numbers - if it was available.
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#39 2017/12/11 15:33:23 |
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PUTIN |
I think the way to stop leveling abuse is quite easy, they can either make 100-110 require 10x as much xp than pre 100 but make new mobs give 10x the xp of wbm/kl. Or maybe mobs have a level? After X level you need to move onto next mob regardless of stats to gain XP
2-3 weeks to find balance between classes is fine, after waiting over a year as archer the only real viable class then 2years as axer 10-15 str off an axer doesn't really seem worth while, they deal how much at mo? 200++? - 10-15 damage less per hit isn't really gonna make a difference
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[quote="PUTIN"]I think the way to stop leveling abuse is quite easy, they can either make 100-110 require 10x as much xp than pre 100 but make new mobs give 10x the xp of wbm/kl. Or maybe mobs have a level? After X level you need to move onto next mob regardless of stats to gain XP
2-3 weeks to find balance between classes is fine, after waiting over a year as archer the only real viable class then 2years as axer
10-15 str off an axer doesn't really seem worth while, they deal how much at mo? 200++? - 10-15 damage less per hit isn't really gonna make a difference [/quote]
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#40 2017/12/11 15:57:37 |
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KASUMI12 |
Would like it if we coukd get a GM on for gvw then after we could go test server gvw |
#41 2017/12/11 16:01:36 |
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YAREYAREDAZE |
"PUTIN"I think the way to stop leveling abuse is quite easy, they can either make 100-110 require 10x as much xp than pre 100 but make new mobs give 10x the xp of wbm/kl. Or maybe mobs have a level? After X level you need to move onto next mob regardless of stats to gain XP You know the whole point about this patch isnt to get revenge on axers for being strong? might surprise you to learn that. We are trying to find a balanced framework for ALL classes, not a balanced one for every class, except axers because you want them punished for being strong previously. 15str removed from an axer isnt enough? lets go with 30-40 so they hit as hard as an archer ye? sounds completely fair. Why not just delete the class so you shut up about them, and we can talk about something else. You seem to forget that most people in dsoma have access to (or have themselves) most other capped classes. So if one class gets nerfed to oblivion, like you seem to want, they are just going to play a better one. For example, If axers becomes trash, I'm just going to play my mage/spear/sword user, I don't care in the slightest, and will be glad to not ruin my K/D.....But that's an absolutely retarded logic to balance a game by - "this class was too strong for 2 years, so we need to make them unplayable for the next 2 years to balance it out". --- also strelk was talking about leveling from 1-100 abuse, such as a mage sitting at enslaved beasts and never putting points in their int past a certain point, so they keep getting exp, aoeing them from 1-100. (theres someone doing this at the moment basically if you go to the dungeons) Or an axer doing the same (but never putting points in their str), and just leveling at enslaved beasts with a clicker, a healer and an inventory full of axes - 99.9% afk
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[quote="YAREYAREDAZE"][quote="PUTIN"]I think the way to stop leveling abuse is quite easy, they can either make 100-110 require 10x as much xp than pre 100 but make new mobs give 10x the xp of wbm/kl. Or maybe mobs have a level? After X level you need to move onto next mob regardless of stats to gain XP
2-3 weeks to find balance between classes is fine, after waiting over a year as archer the only real viable class then 2years as axer
10-15 str off an axer doesn't really seem worth while, they deal how much at mo? 200++? - 10-15 damage less per hit isn't really gonna make a difference [/quote]
You know the whole point about this patch isnt to get revenge on axers for being strong?
might surprise you to learn that.
We are trying to find a balanced framework for ALL classes, not a balanced one for every class, except axers because you want them punished for being strong previously.
15str removed from an axer isnt enough? lets go with 30-40 so they hit as hard as an archer ye? sounds completely fair. Why not just delete the class so you shut up about them, and we can talk about something else.
You seem to forget that most people in dsoma have access to (or have themselves) most other capped classes. So if one class gets nerfed to oblivion, like you seem to want, they are just going to play a better one.
For example, If axers becomes trash, I'm just going to play my mage/spear/sword user, I don't care in the slightest, and will be glad to not ruin my K/D.....But that's an absolutely retarded logic to balance a game by - "this class was too strong for 2 years, so we need to make them unplayable for the next 2 years to balance it out".
---
also strelk was talking about leveling from 1-100 abuse, such as a mage sitting at enslaved beasts and never putting points in their int past a certain point, so they keep getting exp, aoeing them from 1-100. (theres someone doing this at the moment basically if you go to the dungeons)
Or an axer doing the same (but never putting points in their str), and just leveling at enslaved beasts with a clicker, a healer and an inventory full of axes - 99.9% afk
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#42 2017/12/11 16:42:01 |
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MERLIN |
I Guess the quickest way would be to drop mellee mobs to 0 int? If that is possible, they don’t use magic anyway and from what I recall the md/ma of bosses is swt separate to their int stat anyway so could leave md as is tonstop 1 hit farming mass mobs
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#43 2017/12/11 17:01:02 |
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PUTIN |
Also think with smaller Dex gaps and accuracy being ingame the same rate of evasion should be added
I'm not talking about nerfing a class so it's no longer worth playing, but what's fair about a char being the tankiest/having alot more evade chance/ having a much higher hit rate than live and dealing among the highest dmg? - even with 35str off an axer they would deal more damage than archers per hit, 100-120archer wep vs 105-135 axer? damage doubles on wep attack so axers would still hit harder You claim several times axers are the "tanks" I believe almost every other game the tank class isn't also a massive dps class I also have my pick of capped chars (other than Mage) so I can also play whichever class is broken As for stopping people leveling on mobs alot lower for faster XP I believe they can add mob levels so after level X you can't gain XP in that mob and are forced to move on
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[quote="PUTIN"]Also think with smaller Dex gaps and accuracy being ingame the same rate of evasion should be added
I'm not talking about nerfing a class so it's no longer worth playing, but what's fair about a char being the tankiest/having alot more evade chance/ having a much higher hit rate than live and dealing among the highest dmg? - even with 35str off an axer they would deal more damage than archers per hit, 100-120archer wep vs 105-135 axer? damage doubles on wep attack so axers would still hit harder
You claim several times axers are the "tanks" I believe almost every other game the tank class isn't also a massive dps class
I also have my pick of capped chars (other than Mage) so I can also play whichever class is broken
As for stopping people leveling on mobs alot lower for faster XP I believe they can add mob levels so after level X you can't gain XP in that mob and are forced to move on[/quote]
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#44 2017/12/11 17:10:18 |
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