The Forum

[quote="STRELKA"]Last bit of feedback I will give from the test server before launch. I think there are some serious concerns with class balance going into the launch of the patch in a few days. In short, by making STR and CON responsible for attack and defence, not just STR, and by moving all the classes closer together, some classes do far more damage than they should (archer most of all) and others take far more damage than they should (Axe and spear). - [b]THE NUMBERS[/b] Let's compare how the changes go from live to test. Naked in all cases with just a weapon attached. There might be tiny variances because each has a near max attack intense wep but some might be 1-3 closer to max than another. No weapons have +damage on them. I can't test with my archer, because I have a lot of extra punched stats on live - which is not representative of the class. Archer damage is far too high, however, and I say that as someone who plays the class. Archer has lost much less attack/defence compared to other classes as we can see in trend from Knux to Sword.. [b]Knux,[/b] on live - 404-440 attack (average - 422), 223-223 defence (average - 223) [b]Knux, [/b]on test - 386-421 attack (average - 403.5), 205-205 defence (average - 205) [b]Thats a 18.5 loss in average attack, and a 18 loss in average defence. [/b] [b]Sword,[/b] on live - 439-517 attack (average - 478), 234-234 defence (average - 234) [b]Sword, [/b]on test - 415-490 attack (average - 452.5), 210-210 defence (average - 210) [b]Thats a 25.5 loss in average attack, and a 24 loss in average defence. [/b] [b]Spear, [/b]on live - 475-551 attack (average - 513), 268-268 defence (average - 268) [b]Spear, [/b]on test - 421-493 attack (average - 457), 215-215 defence (average - 215) [b]Thats a loss in 56 average attack, and a 53 loss in average defence. [/b] [b]Axe,[/b] on live - 514-606 attack (average - 560), 299-299 defence (average - 299) [b]Axe,[/b] on test - 445-528 attack (average - 486.5), 220-220 defence (average - 220) [b]Thats a 73.5 loss in average attack, and a 79 loss in average defence. [/b] - So what does the new stat system do for class balance? [b]By splitting STR and CON you make the damage and survivability of classes that relied on STR really poor relative to those who rely on STR less[/b]. Axers and spears are most heavily affected by this. Then we have to factor in characters that are not naked, but have upgraded armour. There are two points here. Let's look at the sword: In full high-quality gear (same on both servers): Sword, on live - 475-533 attack (average - 504), 346-386 defence (average - 366) Sword, on test - 451-526 attack (average - 488.5), 322-362 defence (average - 342) Thats a 15.5 loss in average attack, but a 24 loss in average defence. We see that the attack value has reduced much less when compared to defence - because all upgrades (here it was RDT armour) boost attack by a large amount...but not defence. When we factor in full upgraded gear we see that attack is quite similar on PTR to live, but defence decreases more (and also, +20 STR from RDT armour is worth much more to a 210 STR char than a 235 one). [b]This ratio of change is only worse for higher STR classes. [/b] Without new armour the classes that previously got defence from STR now get much less to the point where it's a real problem. This was shown clearly in the PTR test video. In 1v1 auto-attack duels (no auras): [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q6PddmRMyk&feature=youtu.be]1v1 Testing on PTR[/url] All classes took crazy damage, but higher STR ones took almost the same as lower. You start adding in 5th sword and 4th spear.... health drops so easily when everyone is wearing fully upgraded stuff. Then consider group pvp and zombie procs and everyone will have zero chance of survival. - [b]SUGGESTIONS[/b] - All classes need more CON than they currently have to offset the new relative power of upgrades. - All classes need more CON than they currently have to offset the lack of a new armour. - Spear and Axe need a LOT more CON than they currently have. - Archers are doing too much damage now that all the classes are close in con/str (seriously, far far too much damage - and I say that as an archer) - Mages do absolutely terrible damage now that they only have 220 INT (not 260+ like live) while at the same time everyone has gained more and more wisdom. What do people think? Can we get a GM response? [/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"]Aura discussion: Clearly there's an inbalance between classes: Axe benefits massively from being able to use 5th in PVP as well as keep A+ attack speed. Bow and Knux benefit hugely from having a dodge aura and a nuke aura. Sword benefits almost nothing from being able to use 1st/2nd alongside their 5th, but 5th is very strong. Spear gains almost nothing from being able to use 1st with 2nd/4th. [/quote]

[quote="JAHEIRA"]also like to point out a issue you have not taken into account the Sword char in RDT armor, RDT adds to the ATT value and the DEF value in f10, but does not actuly give defense (this is a known display bug) finito is aware of (this bug was in esoma when str was attk and con def) [/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"][quote="JAHEIRA"]also like to point out a issue you have not taken into account the Sword char in RDT armor, RDT adds to the ATT value and the DEF value in f10, but does not actuly give defense (this is a known display bug) finito is aware of (this bug was in esoma when str was attk and con def) [/quote] Ah ok, I didn't know that, but it shouldn't change anything. We are talking about relative changes while using the same gear. If its giving the sword +10 defence on both live and test then nothing really changes when considering relative defence loss. [/quote]

[quote="PUTIN"]Do think damage seems high in your test videos, seemed alot better when I tested with +25 con across the board, I don't feel spears / axers should be given a bigger con boost than other classes due to the Dex changes making them have more evade chance / much higher hit rates than live, would like to see some hit rate tests from live /test comparisons but judging from what I've seen on live a swordy would hit an axer Atleast 14/17 hits? Not 9/17 that was in test video (guessing spear/axe hit rate is both alot higher too) [/quote]

[quote="GOAT"][quote="PUTIN"]Do think damage seems high in your test videos, seemed alot better when I tested with +25 con across the board, I don't feel spears / axers should be given a bigger con boost than other classes due to the Dex changes making them have more evade chance / much higher hit rates than live, would like to see some hit rate tests from live /test comparisons but judging from what I've seen on live a swordy would hit an axer Atleast 14/17 hits? Not 9/17 that was in test video (guessing spear/axe hit rate is both alot higher too) [/quote] The video is literally a test from the test server, showing 9 hitting How can you say it won't [/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"]We did a bit of group testing the other night. 4v4 PVP. The conditions were not great since we couldn't do it 'properly' due to many reasons. The main one was that almost everyone had bugged auras (4th bow, 5th sword, 5th axe were not working, or not working well) so it wasnt possible to use them for easy killing blows. The teams were not so balanced (3 people much worse geared than the others, 1 not capped...but maybe that's realistic). A few times people had to nip out to get pots/gear. Anyway, here is what that aura-less, uncoordinated PvP looked like: [url=https://youtu.be/J-SAV7OACCM]PTR - Dsoma Group PvP Testing [/url] Generally I think it goes to show the inbalance between attack and defence. There are several instances where a single player can only just outpot 2 (and definitely 3) other people sat on them who weren't using auras. Everyone was HAMMERING pots all the time, and with auras available everyone would have been dropping like flies. It raises concerns for archers who do comparable damage to other classes now, but can sit at range and avoid most incoming damage by movement. On live, a fight like this would have been great fun. Each melee could theoretically tank each other, and timed auras and communicated switches would have got kills. Teamwork and coordination would have decided who gets kills I really feel like group pvp will just be players running circles around each other, too afraid to take hits that they dont actually stand still and do any. Players will avoid all fights where they dont have equal or superior numbers. ...just generally pvp will be broken. Zombie procs are a death sentence if you wear them (again, archers can use them and just move to avoid anyone punishing for them) AND if they proc. Koreans with pot lag will get absolutely farmed by autoattack damage alone. GVW is going to be absurd. So again, more con would be useful. [edit] there was some weird stuff going on with mana and auras. I don't know if it's just a PTR issue, but most of them were uncastable and you can see my mana bar randomly filling and emptying at the start. [/quote]

[quote="PUTIN"][quote="GOAT"][quote="PUTIN"]Do think damage seems high in your test videos, seemed alot better when I tested with +25 con across the board, I don't feel spears / axers should be given a bigger con boost than other classes due to the Dex changes making them have more evade chance / much higher hit rates than live, would like to see some hit rate tests from live /test comparisons but judging from what I've seen on live a swordy would hit an axer Atleast 14/17 hits? Not 9/17 that was in test video (guessing spear/axe hit rate is both alot higher too) [/quote] The video is literally a test from the test server, showing 9 hitting How can you say it won't [/quote] Yes he 9 hits him, but it takes him 17 hits to land them 9, loads more than it would on live. I'm on about dex changes, and how much more evade chance along with higher hit rate axers/spears have over live, why give them more of a con boost than other classes when they've benefited more than most from dex changes aswell?[/quote]

[quote="MERLIN"]The con changes aren’t them ‘benefitting most’ it’s restricting the damage nerf they had been already given, by no means would that changing be anything other than that You need to stop the whole ‘axers have benefitted for too long’ mentality and be realistic Yes they have benefitted from the Dex change but nuk/bow can drop axe every time in duel and while that isn’t a true representation of pvp it definitely shows who has the upper hand and who will rinse pots fastest[/quote]

[quote="STRELKA"][quote="PUTIN"] Yes he 9 hits him, but it takes him 17 hits to land them 9, loads more than it would on live. I'm on about dex changes, and how much more evade chance along with higher hit rate axers/spears have over live, why give them more of a con boost than other classes when they've benefited more than most from dex changes aswell?[/quote] We can't draw conclusions from these videos about Dex. The sample size of a single duel is tiny. To do that we'd need to do something like counting the number of punches on live and test over 5 minutes (in the same gear) and see the difference. In other duels, I hit axers 9/9 as sword with an A speed wep. I've had axers hit me 4 in a row and kill me in a few seconds on test, and i've evaded them for 5-10 hits. What we were trying to do is give a guideline of auto-attack damage, and even that obviously has a pretty big variance depending on the attack and defence rolls. Personally, I'm not willing to do any more testing. It's too late and GMs have already confirmed that the game will go live like this. I understand that they don't want to make big changes based on the words of a few testers...but I hope they keep in mind what we have said when they look at rebalanced. We've expressed concerns that: - ALL classes take too much damage - Archers are the most OP - Axers and spears are far too weak in the balance of damage taken - Mage damage done has been lowered so much it makes them pointless. - The int cap melee can get is too low to make proc builds viable. I hope this is considered by GMs if they do balance changes shortly after launch date. Which I think they will want to about 3 hours after PK mode is turned on. [/quote]

[quote="BL00D_SHOT"][quote="PUTIN"]Do think damage seems high in your test videos, seemed alot better when I tested with +25 con across the board, I don't feel spears / axers should be given a bigger con boost than other classes due to the Dex changes making them have more evade chance / much higher hit rates than live, would like to see some hit rate tests from live /test comparisons but judging from what I've seen on live a swordy would hit an axer Atleast 14/17 hits? Not 9/17 that was in test video (guessing spear/axe hit rate is both alot higher too) [/quote] Yeh its the hit rate at 110 that's going to be a problem mostly i think, isn't really an accurate test when all testing are at lvl 100 with the new set stat layouts Will be interesting to see how it pans out i guess[/quote]