The Forum

[quote="Z"]Trials of Valour is meant to scale its difficulty to the amount of players attending, this is however, broken (doing the reverse) or is not currently implemented. I have had many instances of attending the Trials of Valour with under 10 players, under 5 players, and the waves we get within just the first few waves are super harsh. Harder waves than you're likely to get with 20+ players. Kobolds, Gorgg, Tiresias, Wasps, Spiders all for 6 players at the time of their spawn. Trials of Valour needs a difficulty scaling for under 10 and under 5 players. I think you should be able to knock out several waves even if there's just 2 of you, challenge runs like they have in games such as Destiny. If 1 or 2 are in a late night session, they can still get a few Scrolls of Valour. The difficulty is still there for large groups of 20+, for example: we started a 42 wave run with 19 players, and by about 15 waves in we were down to 11 players, so the overall rng difficulty is fine for large parties.[/quote]

[quote="MYTHIC"]It would just end up getting the negamare treatment when they took something challenging that people had to work together to complete and ended up being afk auto attacking, ignoring the adds while watching the colours spin till a boss flops over. Hsoma runs get countered by Kark/KobSorc/ApaiCults/Ulti/VQ/Garshuk/InfernalPam/ManicMino. If it was a case of scaling and mobs being too tough, Lunging lizards would be complained about more, being one of the hardest hitting melee mob in there but they die easily enough. The issue isn't so much ToV scaling, its hsoma's lack of desire to do int, and the lack of mages going to tov now. After 5 level raises people are still using int as the xp sacrifice and can't expect their counter stat to still be a walk in the park to tank, even after gm's caved in and gave op for stat req ancient gear to keep trying to prop up the build. As an example taking note of people's end stats, in a sample of 25 chars: Int: 5 were 200+ 5 were 180-199 4 were 160-179 5 were 140-159 2 were 120-139 4 were 100-119 Str: 24 were 200+ (3=200-219, 18=220-239, 4=240-259) 1 were 180-199 (1=185) Dex: 2 were 200+ (2=200-219) 18 were 180-199 2 were 160-179 1 were 140-159 1 were 120-139 0 were 100-119 1 was below 100 Runs are getting worse on hsoma as less mages go, as with it being slightly easier to gear up mages, they have little interest left in going now they have orbs and would only gain a tag increase on armor. Without mages there's no one to tank and kill magic efficiently, while that's a problem it isn't one that should be fixed with content nerfs in my opinion. The other problems comes in that the runs take longer than they should to get to Ged as the majority are running atk and double tab gear or mix'd mdef, meaning very few have accuracy and as can be seen from the dex stats, if something like VQ spawns, its mostly the mages putting in the work. Hsoma also likes to let others die to adds on Ged more frequently too, as mags/kobs/apai are often left to take people out which is where the big groups go down on Ged as everyone is trying to greed last hit for drops and don't mind less competition. Dsoma seems to have more small group success due to bringing more mages and having better teamwork utilising the right side aggro trap to shuffle mobs if things get tough. Gear wise more people bring slow procs and anti poison. There's been times where hsoma had to kill bosses with no slows and it just gets rough, when hsoma has like 500rec weps, even just one ring will keep it up. Anti poison/PB is BiS for ToV since half the waves in there will have something with poison and having to waste pots taking dmg that could be healed in 1/2 casts is bad in the long run. The other issue with scaling is the toxicity that will come for the scaling breaker, the 6th/11th person who joins to have fun and gets hated by the 5/10 who wanted the easy run. Especially if val armor is still expected to drop from Ged on an easier run. Can see people getting "/tovleave or get pk'd" pm's. TLDR: bribe the mages to return to tov ^^ Everyone is always welcome on dsoma ToV, come give brady/recruit/lyn/karos's dura a break that doesn't come with warnings ;p[/quote]

[quote="RECRUIT"]Agree with what Mythic has said 100% The teamwork aspect is a huge problem on hsoma. The int mobs are just ignored whereas on dsoma they are killed first. It doesn't help that mages do 0 damage to the wave 20 boss Gedusa which is why barely any mages attend on hsoma. There are a few bosses that instantly kill any chance of a decent run with low numbers. Mythic named a few Dsoma acheron, Valk Queen, Ultimapus and Manic mino for example. When these bosses spawn you are basically just standing still in the middle and hit them for 20+ minutes. I think Dsoma and Hsoma need to be looked at separately based on the usercount. A good fix for Hsoma won't always be a good fix for Dsoma.[/quote]

[quote="VALERIOUS"]Yup. Dropping the MD on Gedusa would be a good start, but general scaling based on number of players is needed still. The "tough" bosses shouldn't spawn when under a certain threshold of players. (Eg no Call Queen, manic Mino, garshuk if <10 players) And the number of players should dictate the amount of adds to spawn (up to a maximum). So if there's only 2 players, only (as an example) 4 adds spawn on each side. Whereas 10 players = 8 adds, 20 players 14 adds, with like 16 adds being the maximum.[/quote]

[quote="EPIRUS"]Devil soma tov literally requires no team work. The stats of devil soma character are significantly stronger be it a mage or warrior. You can get to wave 20 with 4-6 people regardless of classes. come on human soma do that. Mage mobs would wipe you out especially the dsoma ones. Also the scaling works on devil soma and not at all on human soma. What team dynamics can be used when you got an excessive amount of mage mobs, boss mobs like manic minitour? - where possible bosses are separated, circled around player and killed like that. Why is TOV full of mainly mage stuff like mags? Can't something more creative be thought of or is that too hard? [/quote]

[quote="MYTHIC"]The reason Im not a fan of scaling would be that eventually the most efficient runs will be worked out and it'll just cause grief to casuals who mess up a guild group wanting an easy smooth run being the one that takes the scaling into the next category that spawns different bosses. If 10 man runs don't get acheron or manic mino and some random takes it to 11, they will be made to feel bad, because guilds will try to take over tov the same way they tried with nega if they are able to get same or similar rewards for smaller group runs as it also means drops are kept within the guild regardless who gets last hit. A lot of the "tough" bosses aren't by nature hard or challenging, it's mostly hsoma is gearing wrong for tov, if hsoma had a tank that didn't get poisoned, a healer, a regular slow proc ring user on bosses and the rest were wearing accuracy, all those bosses would die faster for humans than devil's due to hsoma able to stack more accuracy and also faster attack speeds. An example of kill speed difference with 100% hit rate and the only difference being str is Bertha that has never been killed by dsoma first in its history, its always a good minute difference in time even when there's more devil's purely due to the recoil difference. Now when you add in that hsoma can stack 41-48% acc compared to 26-31% and recoil can be half of dsomas, on top of that humans bringing twice the number of chars, it points to the fact that if hsoma's problem were a tov issue, dsoma would not be clearing wave 20 with half the numbers. Without stacking accuracy gear, physical humans that make up 95% of hsoma tov are looking at a huge miss rate % on the important stuff which is why its not mattering if you bring 20+ people. This is why tbh a solution would be to increase Gedusa def dex to encourage accuracy gear as its only because its so low that people have left it in the wh to the detriment of the other waves. As a mage I don't mind Ged's MD and not getting drops as the mage is there to heal and clear adds on that wave, the armour is cheap enough to buy and the physical classes do 90% of the work in tov controlling aggro, tanking everything and having to watch dura every min. Mage is also the easiest role to acquire more scrolls as all big scroll runs require them so it makes up for it. [/quote]

[quote="RAVENSOUL"]For what it’s worth 2 friends have attended the tov, one is a warrior and one is a tank mage. The warrior lost the will to attend after there second time there maybe due to feeling he wasn’t contributing much tried with evasion and attack gear, accuracy and attack gear but only having a stinger bow felt he wasn’t doing much to help. The tank mage on the other hand enjoyed it, but realised some players are not there working as a team where others he knew had his back. That’s the biggest problem I have come across on this server, devils regardless of there rivalries put it to the side while taking part in wotw and tov for the greater good so to speak. Humans on the other hand some work as a team others are there for there own selfishness. Whenever bosses spawned teamwork goes out the window on human tov, especially if the bosses drop anything good. I do think the game should take into account what type of players are there ie warriors/mages and amount attending. But like negamare, it’s supposed to be a challenge if it’s made weaker you may as well get the gm’s to reward players just for longer on each day etc. Talk to the players there, have a game plan, mages tank magic, warriors tank melee, slow, weaken, poison etc play your part. But I won’t hold my breathe humans have always been selfish....[/quote]

[quote="Z"]Scaling is meant to be a part of Trials of Valour, Finito has said this, that is why the word "Error" is in the title. It is nonsensical to not have scaling to some degree, as it pushes many sessions to end on initiation. [img]https://i.imgur.com/n3Xv8jX.png[/img][/quote]

[quote="VALERIOUS"]The problem is, you can't rely on all players to play smart and efficiently. Yes, if you had a well coordinated and well equipped group of 5-10 people you can do really well, getting wave 20 pretty comfortably. The reality is, most people are stupid and you can't change that, so you need to accomodate for the players that you have. And secondly, Soma just doesn't have the player-base to consistently field even 5-10 players for ToV... When there are only 2 players left playing, doesn't matter how coordinated and well equipped they are, they're not gonna get far. Current lack of scaling is making less and less people attend (not worth the time spending 50 minutes to only get to wave 5), which is making the problem worse and worse.[/quote]

[quote="MITCHY"]A big problem (myself included does this) is the amount of dual logged chars. I used to take Manchu as my attack char, and tyrese as my tank char with slow stuff equipped. But some players bring two chars and just round about avoiding mobs completely and don’t actually help with killing anything. Int mobs need killing first but this never happens and easy melee mobs are targeted. But ah well can never please everyone and in 6months time something else will be wrong with tov and people will find something else to ask for. [/quote]

[quote="Z"][quote="VALERIOUS"]The problem is, you can't rely on all players to play smart and efficiently. Yes, if you had a well coordinated and well equipped group of 5-10 people you can do really well, getting wave 20 pretty comfortably. The reality is, most people are stupid and you can't change that, so you need to accomodate for the players that you have. And secondly, Soma just doesn't have the player-base to consistently field even 5-10 players for ToV... When there are only 2 players left playing, doesn't matter how coordinated and well equipped they are, they're not gonna get far. Current lack of scaling is making less and less people attend (not worth the time spending 50 minutes to only get to wave 5), which is making the problem worse and worse.[/quote] Thank you. [quote="MITCHY"]But ah well can never please everyone and in 6months time something else will be wrong with tov and people will find something else to ask for.[/quote] And that's what should always happen, updates over time to improve things that can be improved without too much headache. [/quote]

[quote="TINYTERROR"]nowadays the UC is too low to keep depending on other people to attend tov, then when they do their tabbed out in corners running back n fourth .... dual logged doin F all or stood in peacemode i feel for devils because theirs no way they can get valour most of the time( why i dont play 1 now) , hsoma now and then you get few good ones but theirs select few who have issues gettin val with time zone issues..... nowdays as it is cant on rely on others to obtain things, this would of worked well around level 110 cap when the server was packed , instead back then you had the option to do things yourself via hunting or active trading and obtaining what you desired without relyin on other people per say. Get Rid of immunity pots, stops cheaters hunting safely and abusing it [/quote]

[quote="SUPER6"]Getting rid of immunity pots would be the final nail in the coffin for this server.[/quote]

[quote="TINYTERROR"]for a game of UC of 10 a day if your lucky how is it impossible to hunt lol?, granted pots were pot in when their was least 15-30 people on either side a DAY where you could actually get harrassed + hunted , nowadays its a walk in the park to do any hunting and farming literally 0 excuses [/quote]

[quote="BELDARAN"]well i need imm pots,often get attacked by both sides as they each believe im a spy for the other, couldnt hunt where i want to without imm pots [/quote]