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ACAELUS |
"IPHIOS""_SEPHIROTH_"Extra int upgrades are easy to come by. Red dragon tablets (+1str) are so much rarer than tablet of wisdoms (+1 int) Can we really trust the opinion of someone who didn't even have a 4th aura in eSoma? Kidding, valid point Seph, if we are going to start anywhere the str/attack based access/hero top could do with a change.
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[quote="ACAELUS"][quote="IPHIOS"][quote="_SEPHIROTH_"]Extra int upgrades are easy to come by. Red dragon tablets (+1str) are so much rarer than tablet of wisdoms (+1 int)
Mage hero top 5-8 MA
Warp neck 0-9 MA basic (1-10 rare)
Necro charm +2 int
= 7-19 magic attack from easily accessible items
Vs
Warrior hero top +2 (most warriors I know went mage top)
×2 ring of fighters 2-4 attack power
So just 4-6 attack power from easily accessible items
(Correct me if I'm wrong I've not done the research)[/quote]
Probably the most sensible argument in this thread.
Melee based access could do with a bonus to be brought in line with magic based.[/quote]
Can we really trust the opinion of someone who didn't even have a 4th aura in eSoma?
Kidding, valid point Seph, if we are going to start anywhere the str/attack based access/hero top could do with a change.
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#31 2013/12/12 11:44:23 |
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BELKA |
"IPHIOS" So why is it FAR more effective for someone with the same INT and less staff skill than me to kill me with magic rather than use their 25 STR advantage and melee me? About upgrades and access - Melee requires a full set of dex access (which is nigh on impossible to get) so yeah, that will come into play later in the game (if we forget for the moment just how disgustingly hard it is to get Del Tabs and then get enough for +2/3 on access). Let's not even consider getting an upgraded high tagged wep too. But the nerf to accuracy (3% not 7%) + eva (halved on dodge/hero) as well as the removal of 150 skill weps (9% acc on Crit Pen, +6 DEX on Power Anchor etc) means that melee offence will ALWAYS be significantly weaker than melee defence - and therefore useless for PvP. The fact that melee defence is so much stronger than melee offence is almost unrelated to the melee v magic argument, but it results in people being forced to use magic to kill others. That is what annoys a lot of people who don't enjoy the magic-style.
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[quote="BELKA"][quote="IPHIOS"]
If someone has "30-40" more than you in [b]any[/b] stat then they will use that to take you down...
[/quote]
So why is it FAR more effective for someone with the same INT and less staff skill than me to kill me with magic rather than use their 25 STR advantage and melee me?
About upgrades and access - Melee requires a full set of dex access (which is nigh on impossible to get) so yeah, that will come into play later in the game (if we forget for the moment just how disgustingly hard it is to get Del Tabs and then get enough for +2/3 on access). Let's not even consider getting an upgraded high tagged wep too.
But the nerf to accuracy (3% not 7%) + eva (halved on dodge/hero) as well as the removal of 150 skill weps (9% acc on Crit Pen, +6 DEX on Power Anchor etc) means that melee offence will ALWAYS be significantly weaker than melee defence - and therefore useless for PvP.
The fact that melee defence is so much stronger than melee offence is almost unrelated to the melee v magic argument, but it results in people [b] being forced to use magic[/b] to kill others. That is what annoys a lot of people who don't enjoy the magic-style. [/quote]
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#32 2013/12/12 11:44:37 |
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SHATTERSTAR |
Kidding, valid point Seph, if we are going to start anywhere the str/attack based access/hero top could do with a change. Also, int robes should have their defence adjusted to be around 0-1, 1-1. That's def and not MD. |
#33 2013/12/12 12:13:30 |
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TAKESHI |
Nightmare epic helm and boots have around the same defence as blood helm and boots which is fair considering it's a 97 int requirement compared to 68 str req for same defence
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#34 2013/12/12 12:20:57 |
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SHATTERSTAR |
"TAKESHI"Nightmare epic helm and boots have around the same defence as blood helm and boots which is fair considering it's a 97 int requirement compared to 68 str req for same defence A mage casts magic and should have little or no defence. A mage should not be able to wear cloth and tank a melee with similar strength.
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[quote="SHATTERSTAR"][quote="TAKESHI"]Nightmare epic helm and boots have around the same defence as blood helm and boots which is fair considering it's a 97 int requirement compared to 68 str req for same defence[/quote]
A mage casts magic and should have little or no defence. A mage should not be able to wear cloth and tank a melee with similar strength. [/quote]
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#35 2013/12/12 12:25:48 |
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IPHIOS |
"BELKA""IPHIOS" In PVP situations range is a factor. Noone is going to chase you around hitting you with their hardclub when they can hit you with int range. If I were to try pk someone even if i had the same int and 30str more than them I would still use int over sword purely based on range. However if I had bow plus 4th I would use melee. Melee requires a full set of dex equipment just the same as magic does.
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[quote="IPHIOS"][quote="BELKA"][quote="IPHIOS"]
If someone has "30-40" more than you in [b]any[/b] stat then they will use that to take you down...
[/quote]
So why is it FAR more effective for someone with the same INT and less staff skill than me to kill me with magic rather than use their 25 STR advantage and melee me?
About upgrades and access - Melee requires a full set of dex access (which is nigh on impossible to get) so yeah, that will come into play later in the game (if we forget for the moment just how disgustingly hard it is to get Del Tabs and then get enough for +2/3 on access). Let's not even consider getting an upgraded high tagged wep too.
But the nerf to accuracy (3% not 7%) + eva (halved on dodge/hero) as well as the removal of 150 skill weps (9% acc on Crit Pen, +6 DEX on Power Anchor etc) means that melee offence will ALWAYS be significantly weaker than melee defence - and therefore useless for PvP.
The fact that melee defence is so much stronger than melee offence is almost unrelated to the melee v magic argument, but it results in people [b] being forced to use magic[/b] to kill others. That is what annoys a lot of people who don't enjoy the magic-style. [/quote]
In PVP situations range is a factor. Noone is going to chase you around hitting you with their hardclub when they can hit you with int range. If I were to try pk someone even if i had the same int and 30str more than them I would still use int over sword purely based on range. However if I had bow plus 4th I would use melee.
Melee requires a full set of dex equipment just the same as magic does.[/quote]
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#36 2013/12/12 12:38:47 |
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SHATTERSTAR |
Obviously confirming that int and bow are completely OP.
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#37 2013/12/12 12:45:26 |
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WARLOCK |
Id be happy to see Hsoma end game melee weapons buffed
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#38 2013/12/12 12:51:46 |
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IPHIOS |
Wouldn't take anything I say as confirmation of anything to be fair but PVP for the most part is range based which is why people use it. Rage did perfectly well against me with his BOF a few weeks ago. That is with my str being at a guess 10 higher with around 30+ more int.
2nd axe is OP, 2nd spear is OP, dodge is OP or maybe its all just balanced and useful in certain situations which should be assessed at the time.
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[quote="IPHIOS"]Wouldn't take anything I say as confirmation of anything to be fair but PVP for the most part is range based which is why people use it. Rage did perfectly well against me with his BOF a few weeks ago. That is with my str being at a guess 10 higher with around 30+ more int.
2nd axe is OP, 2nd spear is OP, dodge is OP or maybe its all just balanced and useful in certain situations which should be assessed at the time.[/quote]
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#39 2013/12/12 12:55:27 |
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_SEPHIROTH_ |
"IPHIOS"Melee requires a full set of dex equipment just the same as magic does. Problem is defensive dex upgrades are much easier to obtain than offensive, another con against the warrior route. You can start collecting everything you need (mainly frogs) for Dragons Pill from like 72 int on you own. (which is fast to get to) For Keen Eye (3% accuracy) you'll probably need a minimum of 110-115 str? To start collecting Medium Rubies on your own. (In short warriors could struggle even more against mages until they get to BLG)
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[quote="_SEPHIROTH_"][quote="IPHIOS"]Melee requires a full set of dex equipment just the same as magic does.[/quote]
Problem is defensive dex upgrades are much easier to obtain than offensive, another con against the warrior route.
You can start collecting everything you need (mainly frogs) for Dragons Pill from like 72 int on you own. (which is fast to get to)
For Keen Eye (3% accuracy) you'll probably need a minimum of 110-115 str? To start collecting Medium Rubies on your own.
(In short warriors could struggle even more against mages until they get to BLG)[/quote]
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#40 2013/12/12 13:01:27 |
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TOLIC |
to put it bluntly theirs been major nerfs to melee with evasion/accuracy etc and a major buff to int with no damage cap and better hero armour
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#41 2013/12/12 13:03:28 |
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SHATTERSTAR |
If we require a int and dex set, what about axe users..does this mean that 4th axe should be put to a+ on hsoma? #justsaying
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#42 2013/12/12 13:10:34 |
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IPHIOS |
"_SEPHIROTH_""IPHIOS"Melee requires a full set of dex equipment just the same as magic does. Have to say that thought didn't enter my head but yeah I agree that a tweak could be made somewhere for rubies and ll. That being said I still wouldn't consider it being enough of an imbalance to regard magic as OP. ;o Probably for another thread but I also consider frogs being too common an item for what they do ;o An eva set was a proper milestone and achievement for me in esoma - here i take it for granted that with the number of frogs dropping that I will be able to make a set (or 3) without problem. "TOLIC"to put it bluntly theirs been major nerfs to melee with evasion/accuracy etc and a major buff to int with no damage cap and better hero armour The evasion nerf affects magic also. Accuracy nerf is irrelevant imo as it is now in line with eva however its availability is a bit lacking atm. Damage cap is irrelevant as S0rc said previously. Hero armour melee top could do with a tweak.
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[quote="IPHIOS"][quote="_SEPHIROTH_"][quote="IPHIOS"]Melee requires a full set of dex equipment just the same as magic does.[/quote]
Problem is defensive dex upgrades are much easier to obtain than offensive, another con against the warrior route.
You can start collecting everything you need (mainly frogs) for Dragons Pill from like 72 int on you own. (which is fast to get to)
For Keen Eye (3% accuracy) you'll probably need a minimum of 110-115 str? To start collecting Medium Rubies on your own.
(In short warriors could struggle even more against mages until they get to BLG)[/quote]
Have to say that thought didn't enter my head but yeah I agree that a tweak could be made somewhere for rubies and ll.
That being said I still wouldn't consider it being enough of an imbalance to regard magic as OP. ;o
Probably for another thread but I also consider frogs being too common an item for what they do ;o An eva set was a proper milestone and achievement for me in esoma - here i take it for granted that with the number of frogs dropping that I will be able to make a set (or 3) without problem.
[quote="TOLIC"]to put it bluntly theirs been major nerfs to melee with evasion/accuracy etc and a major buff to int with no damage cap and better hero armour[/quote]
The evasion nerf affects magic also. Accuracy nerf is irrelevant imo as it is now in line with eva however its availability is a bit lacking atm.
Damage cap is irrelevant as S0rc said previously. Hero armour melee top could do with a tweak.[/quote]
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#43 2013/12/12 13:19:10 |
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_SEPHIROTH_ |
"SHATTERSTAR"If we require a int and dex set, what about axe users..does this mean that 4th axe should be put to a+ on hsoma? #justsaying Haha what?? Hsoma axe is ridiculous, must be the only weapon with awesome 2nd, 3rd, 4th an 5th auras. Sword an Spear only have 1! Anyways, yeah melee is gimped :P
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[quote="_SEPHIROTH_"][quote="SHATTERSTAR"]If we require a int and dex set, what about axe users..does this mean that 4th axe should be put to a+ on hsoma? #justsaying[/quote]
Haha what?? Hsoma axe is ridiculous, must be the only weapon with awesome 2nd, 3rd, 4th an 5th auras.
Sword an Spear only have 1!
Anyways, yeah melee is gimped :P[/quote]
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#44 2013/12/12 13:22:58 |
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PATHOLOGIST |
There is no damage being done by melee Devils until end game where skill bonus and final weapons get a boost.
You will find the exact same situation on hsoma. Everyone told me to 'stop complaining'. See how it feels to be completely useless until your at end game?
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[quote="PATHOLOGIST"]There is no damage being done by melee Devils until end game where skill bonus and final weapons get a boost.
You will find the exact same situation on hsoma.
Everyone told me to 'stop complaining'.
See how it feels to be completely useless until your at end game?[/quote]
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#45 2013/12/12 13:28:31 |
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