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S0RCERER |
"PATHOLOGIST"There is no damage being done by melee Devils until end game where skill bonus and final weapons get a boost. Slight difference Huss. Devils will deal substantial damage to eachother endgame melee, but on Hsoma, INT will still prove to be better to use than Melee as they've not access to their endgame weapons, yet they do have access to endgame magic items (upgrades are easier, more bonus to MA on mage accessories/gear, shironim wand is here too). As it stands (I mentioned this in another thread): Devils 121/132 weapons epic tag and above are better than their Esoma -L tag 150skill weapons. (Apart from Staff of Shadows, which is weaker). Humans don't even have access to their endgame weapons (Axe of Pamoth, Power Anchor etc.) and as they're using penultimate tier weapons, they'll only deal significant melee damage to eachother in the late 80's (guesstimate). This makes PVP for the vast majority of the Hsoma community pigeon holed into fighting with INT. As a non sequitur, INT is 75% faster on Hsoma as it is on Dsoma (NM2.5k exp, GS1.5kexp). Haven't checked exactly how NM compare to a STR counterpart like Hoarde Shanis/Palus but I'd wager that they're better too.
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[quote="S0RCERER"][quote="PATHOLOGIST"]There is no damage being done by melee Devils until end game where skill bonus and final weapons get a boost.
You will find the exact same situation on hsoma.
Everyone told me to 'stop complaining'.
See how it feels to be completely useless until your at end game?[/quote]
Slight difference Huss.
Devils will deal substantial damage to eachother [b]endgame[/b] melee, but on Hsoma, INT will still prove to be better to use than Melee as they've not access to their endgame weapons, yet they do have access to endgame magic items (upgrades are easier, more bonus to MA on mage accessories/gear, shironim wand is here too).
As it stands (I mentioned this in another thread):
Devils 121/132 weapons epic tag and above are better than their Esoma -L tag 150skill weapons. (Apart from Staff of Shadows, which is weaker).
Humans don't even have access to their endgame weapons (Axe of Pamoth, Power Anchor etc.) and as they're using penultimate tier weapons, they'll only deal significant melee damage to eachother in the late 80's (guesstimate).
This makes PVP for the vast majority of the Hsoma community pigeon holed into fighting with INT.
As a non sequitur, INT is 75% faster on Hsoma as it is on Dsoma (NM2.5k exp, GS1.5kexp). Haven't checked exactly how NM compare to a STR counterpart like Hoarde Shanis/Palus but I'd wager that they're better too.[/quote]
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#46 2013/12/12 13:34:59 |
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IMCON |
Although I'm going to (eventually) be primarily a mage, and so benefit from the current arrangement, I agree that it sounds like there is an issue. But we need to be careful about nerfing something that is already established. E.g. If you nerf any hero item, people would be annoyed because they've picked their hero items. If you nerf frog drops, lower levels like me who haven't got there yet would be pretty angry about that. You can buff things more easily, such as adding melee attack on various items. And you can nerf things that aren't tied to items or rates, such as the power of pvp spells.
I would agree with the idea of adding melee attack to both accessories/hero and/or a % increase to all weapons. The issue is that we don't want to add so much that it messes up the balance between players and mobs and makes the game too easy from that perspective. So perhaps a small int nerf would be okay too for balance. Now that I've said all that, I'm going to contradict myself a little: I don't think nerfing regular defense on cloth items such as Nightmare would be such a bad thing. I'd fully expect a melee-focused character to hurt me and want mage items to be a source of MD. Another thought: Is it possible to make a change that ONLY impacts PvP or ONLY impacts PvE? That kind of thing might make the game more balanceable than it currently is.
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[quote="IMCON"]Although I'm going to (eventually) be primarily a mage, and so benefit from the current arrangement, I agree that it sounds like there is an issue. But we need to be careful about nerfing something that is already established. E.g. If you nerf any hero item, people would be annoyed because they've picked their hero items. If you nerf frog drops, lower levels like me who haven't got there yet would be pretty angry about that. You can buff things more easily, such as adding melee attack on various items. And you can nerf things that aren't tied to items or rates, such as the power of pvp spells.
I would agree with the idea of adding melee attack to both accessories/hero and/or a % increase to all weapons. The issue is that we don't want to add so much that it messes up the balance between players and mobs and makes the game too easy from that perspective. So perhaps a small int nerf would be okay too for balance.
Now that I've said all that, I'm going to contradict myself a little: I don't think nerfing regular defense on cloth items such as Nightmare would be such a bad thing. I'd fully expect a melee-focused character to hurt me and want mage items to be a source of MD.
Another thought: Is it possible to make a change that ONLY impacts PvP or ONLY impacts PvE? That kind of thing might make the game more balanceable than it currently is.[/quote]
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#47 2013/12/12 13:43:30 |
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S0RCERER |
Imcon, the most simple solution is to do a flat increase in weapon damage based on %.
Lower end weapons when hunting will have little to no impact, upper tier weapons would benefit more. How much % would work? Well lets take Apus bow (rounded) 30~40 damage, adding 10% wouldn't make much or any impact to PVP or PVE (33~44), but 20% would make a more noticeable jump i.e. 36~48. We don't want Melee outshining Magic in all situations, but making it less of a farce when someone comes to take a swing at you. Melee should be used more than just for interrupting a mage. I think adding 20% flat increase on all Human weapons would be a great 'quick fix'. It would have two effects. 1) STR/DEX would be slightly faster as your kill speed would go up (that's a given). 2) You would start to actually hurt people whom have a gap in STR from your own. An alternative would be to make more available +Attack upgrade items (but then the majority of Hsoma would not have the luxury and as such, only the top-end or rich people would monopolise this). or Make +attack accessories on par with INT ones (Not +STR as that'll grant defence too and we'd be back at square one).
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[quote="S0RCERER"]Imcon, the most simple solution is to do a flat increase in weapon damage based on %.
Lower end weapons when hunting will have little to no impact, upper tier weapons would benefit more.
How much % would work? Well lets take Apus bow (rounded) 30~40 damage, adding 10% wouldn't make much or any impact to PVP or PVE (33~44), but 20% would make a more noticeable jump i.e. 36~48.
We don't want Melee outshining Magic in all situations, but making it less of a farce when someone comes to take a swing at you. Melee should be used more than just for interrupting a mage.
I think adding 20% flat increase on all Human weapons would be a great 'quick fix'. It would have two effects.
1) STR/DEX would be slightly faster as your kill speed would go up (that's a given).
2) You would start to actually hurt people whom have a gap in STR from your own.
An alternative would be to make more available +Attack upgrade items (but then the majority of Hsoma would not have the luxury and as such, only the top-end or rich people would monopolise this).
or
Make +attack accessories on par with INT ones (Not +STR as that'll grant defence too and we'd be back at square one).[/quote]
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#48 2013/12/12 13:52:04 |
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ACAELUS |
"SHATTERSTAR" I don't understand how your own characters attack can be lower that its defense, this really should not be the case at any level. This is a very good point the tagged system on the armors has to much of a cumulative effect due to you gaining extra defense on 4 or 5 pieces depending on if you use a shield. With the Wep you are only gaining on one. This reallyyy needs looking at or mellee PVP on Hsomat leastst is screwed.
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[quote="ACAELUS"][quote="SHATTERSTAR"] I don't understand how your own characters attack can be lower that its defense, this really should not be the case at any level.[/quote]
This is a very good point the tagged system on the armors has to much of a cumulative effect due to you gaining extra defense on 4 or 5 pieces depending on if you use a shield. With the Wep you are only gaining on one. This reallyyy needs looking at or mellee PVP on Hsomat leastst is screwed.[/quote]
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#49 2013/12/12 13:59:02 |
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SHATTERSTAR |
"ACAELUS""SHATTERSTAR" I don't understand how your own characters attack can be lower that its defense, this really should not be the case at any level. The next logical question is, what is the magic number to increase the base % of weapons by to increase the damage to that above defence and make a worthwhile but fair difference.
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[quote="SHATTERSTAR"][quote="ACAELUS"][quote="SHATTERSTAR"] I don't understand how your own characters attack can be lower that its defense, this really should not be the case at any level.[/quote]
This is a very good point the tagged system on the armors has to much of a cumulative effect due to you gaining extra defense on 4 or 5 pieces depending on if you use a shield. With the Wep you are only gaining on one. This reallyyy needs looking at or mellee PVP on Hsomat leastst is screwed.[/quote]
The next logical question is, what is the magic number to increase the base % of weapons by to increase the damage to that above defence and make a worthwhile but fair difference.[/quote]
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#50 2013/12/12 14:04:08 |
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ACAELUS |
"S0RCERER""SCOIN"More accurate would be "Defense is OP relative to Attack". If you nerfed magic, then you'd all just be using Melee in its current state and PvP would consist of who runs out of durability first."S0RCERER" This is a case of melee being far too weak (on hsoma). .Another way of putting that is: Int is op relative to melee I dont think the solution is to nerf magic and its to late in the server to do this now any way... This can be resolved by greatly upping the att on standered droped wepons and increase the % increase for tag on wepons to greater than what it is for armours. Playes should not have more def then there att
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[quote="ACAELUS"][quote="S0RCERER"][quote="SCOIN"][quote="S0RCERER"] This is a case of melee being far too weak (on hsoma). .[/quote] Another way of putting that is: Int is op relative to melee [/quote] More accurate would be "Defense is OP relative to Attack". If you nerfed magic, then you'd all just be using Melee in its current state and PvP would consist of who runs out of durability first.[/quote]
I dont think the solution is to nerf magic and its to late in the server to do this now any way...
This can be resolved by greatly upping the att on standered droped wepons and increase the % increase for tag on wepons to greater than what it is for armours. Playes should not have more def then there att[/quote]
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#51 2013/12/12 14:04:29 |
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S0RCERER |
I've not a list with me at present, but if someone could display the untag attack of all Apus/Ripper/Ruby tier weapons, that would be great.
Along with a Bone set's complete defence (excluding tower shield). Wouldn't need to alter the tag system on armour if the weapons had a higher base attack. So please, if anyone has the above information at hand, post it here please.
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[quote="S0RCERER"]I've not a list with me at present, but if someone could display the untag attack of all Apus/Ripper/Ruby tier weapons, that would be great.
Along with a Bone set's complete defence (excluding tower shield).
Wouldn't need to alter the tag system on armour if the weapons had a higher base attack.
So please, if anyone has the above information at hand, post it here please.[/quote]
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#52 2013/12/12 14:13:45 |
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ACAELUS |
"SHATTERSTAR""ACAELUS"The next logical question is, what is the magic number to increase the base % of weapons by to increase the damage to that above defence and make a worthwhile but fair difference."SHATTERSTAR" I don't understand how your own characters attack can be lower that its defense, this really should not be the case at any level.This is a very good point the tagged system on the armors has to much of a cumulative effect due to you gaining extra defense on 4 or 5 pieces depending on if you use a shield. With the Wep you are only gaining on one. This reallyyy needs looking at or mellee PVP on Hsomat leastst is screwed. True this needs a GM to take a close look at but as you said in a previous post I reckon around the 20% mark
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[quote="ACAELUS"][quote="SHATTERSTAR"][quote="ACAELUS"][quote="SHATTERSTAR"] I don't understand how your own characters attack can be lower that its defense, this really should not be the case at any level.[/quote] This is a very good point the tagged system on the armors has to much of a cumulative effect due to you gaining extra defense on 4 or 5 pieces depending on if you use a shield. With the Wep you are only gaining on one. This reallyyy needs looking at or mellee PVP on Hsomat leastst is screwed.[/quote] The next logical question is, what is the magic number to increase the base % of weapons by to increase the damage to that above defence and make a worthwhile but fair difference.[/quote]
True this needs a GM to take a close look at but as you said in a previous post I reckon around the 20% mark[/quote]
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#53 2013/12/12 14:16:03 |
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_SEPHIROTH_ |
"IPHIOS"Have to say that thought didn't enter my head but yeah I agree that a tweak could be made somewhere for rubies and ll. Just to add to that, like I mentioned before +Str an +Int tablets should be evenly available. Currently anyone thats had a stint at warmess or warban (they drop off several other mobs) is likely to have at least 1 Tablet of Wisdom. Which means there will be a few on them market if people ask about. Armory says red dragon tablets drop off Gargoyle Warrior an Shiro but not often. I've never heard or seen of them dropping from Devil Warriors. I already know of several people that have +3 or +4 Int Necromancer Charms.
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[quote="_SEPHIROTH_"][quote="IPHIOS"]Have to say that thought didn't enter my head but yeah I agree that a tweak could be made somewhere for rubies and ll.
That being said I still wouldn't consider it being enough of an imbalance to regard magic as OP. ;o.[/quote]
Just to add to that, like I mentioned before +Str an +Int tablets should be evenly available. Currently anyone thats had a stint at warmess or warban (they drop off several other mobs) is likely to have at least 1 Tablet of Wisdom. Which means there will be a few on them market if people ask about.
Armory says red dragon tablets drop off Gargoyle Warrior an Shiro but not often. I've never heard or seen of them dropping from Devil Warriors.
I already know of several people that have +3 or +4 Int Necromancer Charms.[/quote]
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#54 2013/12/12 14:30:17 |
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FUJITORA |
Would agree that the melle dmg is low, but i would say 20% damage increase would just be way too much,
If peopple look at the damage on end game weps, they should look at pamoth weapons instead... Leo has a 36-61 attack epic blue wave axe already, and does reasonable damage with it Increasing the base attack by 20% would probably mean ~42-73 attack on an epic blue wave (on a one handed axe), which would probably be a bit much Im guessing at some point hsoma will and probably should get another tier of weapons with more attack, which would aid the situation somewhat. Hardly anyone has any speed upgraded weps / Accuracy armor (Even though these are both nerfed into oblivion, once people start getting them onto weps, we should see a bit more damage...) I used a toe on a weapon and it gained 38 recoil, which is not even half a speed Not to mention the 3 1 1 1 % upgrade system is just silly, it is way to low (I think atleast 3 2 1 1 1 or 3 2 2 1 1) I understand both of the above were "nerfed" for a reason, but right now going beyond +1 is just ridiculously high risk for almost no gain (With rubies being so rare)
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[quote="FUJITORA"]Would agree that the melle dmg is low, but i would say 20% damage increase would just be way too much,
If peopple look at the damage on end game weps, they should look at pamoth weapons instead...
Leo has a 36-61 attack epic blue wave axe already, and does reasonable damage with it
Increasing the base attack by 20% would probably mean ~42-73 attack on an epic blue wave (on a one handed axe), which would probably be a bit much
Im guessing at some point hsoma will and probably should get another tier of weapons with more attack, which would aid the situation somewhat.
Hardly anyone has any speed upgraded weps / Accuracy armor (Even though these are both nerfed into oblivion, once people start getting them onto weps, we should see a bit more damage...)
I used a toe on a weapon and it gained 38 recoil, which is not even half a speed
Not to mention the 3 1 1 1 % upgrade system is just silly, it is way to low (I think atleast 3 2 1 1 1 or 3 2 2 1 1)
I understand both of the above were "nerfed" for a reason, but right now going beyond +1 is just ridiculously high risk for almost no gain (With rubies being so rare)[/quote]
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#55 2013/12/12 14:30:22 |
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FUJITORA |
Another part of the problem is just that epic/intense weapons are just very rare, and with the upgrade system the chances of breaking one are pretty high, its not like dsoma where if you get an intense weapon you are done and you can use it forever..
Spent the best part of 1.5 weeks at LBs and had 1 Intense apus bow, and 1 epic crystal staff... Rest rares Some could say i got an intense apus, but i know loads of other people who hunt there, most generally unsuccessful with high tag weapons
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[quote="FUJITORA"]Another part of the problem is just that epic/intense weapons are just very rare, and with the upgrade system the chances of breaking one are pretty high, its not like dsoma where if you get an intense weapon you are done and you can use it forever..
Spent the best part of 1.5 weeks at LBs and had 1 Intense apus bow, and 1 epic crystal staff... Rest rares
Some could say i got an intense apus, but i know loads of other people who hunt there, most generally unsuccessful with high tag weapons[/quote]
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#56 2013/12/12 14:34:48 |
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S0RCERER |
"FUJITORA"If peopple look at the damage on end game weps, they should look at pamoth weapons instead... So if there was an across the board +20% increase, his epic axe would be 50~88. For a last-tier item, that's not a massive jump (8~15). It's still leaps and bounds behind devil melee weapons and would also allow for a higher % at wars (as a side-effect) as you'd do more damage.
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[quote="S0RCERER"][quote="FUJITORA"]If peopple look at the damage on end game weps, they should look at pamoth weapons instead...
Leo has a 36-61 attack epic blue wave axe already, and does reasonable damage with it
Increasing the base attack by 20% would probably mean ~42-73 attack on an epic blue wave (on a one handed axe), which would probably be a bit much[/quote]
So if there was an across the board +20% increase, his epic axe would be 50~88.
For a last-tier item, that's not a massive jump (8~15).
It's still leaps and bounds behind devil melee weapons and would also allow for a higher % at wars (as a side-effect) as you'd do more damage.
[/quote]
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#57 2013/12/12 14:36:02 |
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ACAELUS |
I Totaly agree with you on the speed upgrade. I Think these were nerfed far to much in fear of what happend on the test server. However this is not not the test server and I think ToE's should be put to what they were on Esoma. As for Leo's damage he has a bit more str then me and doesnt do tones...
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[quote="ACAELUS"]I Totaly agree with you on the speed upgrade. I Think these were nerfed far to much in fear of what happend on the test server. However this is not not the test server and I think ToE's should be put to what they were on Esoma. As for Leo's damage he has a bit more str then me and doesnt do tones...[/quote]
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#58 2013/12/12 14:45:11 |
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FUJITORA |
"S0RCERER" No it wouldnt, dont know what the exact dmg on an untagged blue wave is but it should be roughly 36 / 1.3 Multiply that by 1.2 for a 20% increase on untagged = ( 36 / 1.3 ) * 1.2 Multiply that by another 1.3 for the attack on an epic = (36 / 1.3 ) * 1.2 * 1.3 = ~43 for min attack, same deal for max I might be wrong though Also forgot to add Pamoth weapons are pretty rare too, has a 4 day respawn and servre reboots or crashes every few days, so generally it has a longer than 4 day respawn (Same for shironim...)
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[quote="FUJITORA"][quote="S0RCERER"]
So if there was an across the board +20% increase, his axe would be 50~88.
[/quote]
No it wouldnt, dont know what the exact dmg on an untagged blue wave is but it should be roughly 36 / 1.3
Multiply that by 1.2 for a 20% increase on untagged = ( 36 / 1.3 ) * 1.2
Multiply that by another 1.3 for the attack on an epic = (36 / 1.3 ) * 1.2 * 1.3 = ~43 for min attack, same deal for max
I might be wrong though
Also forgot to add Pamoth weapons are pretty rare too, has a 4 day respawn and servre reboots or crashes every few days, so generally it has a longer than 4 day respawn (Same for shironim...)[/quote]
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#59 2013/12/12 14:46:05 |
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S0RCERER |
Fair enough, doesn't that go to show that 20% would be fine though?
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#60 2013/12/12 14:48:54 |
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