| Author | Content | Date |
|---|---|---|
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SUBXERO |
So I spoke to a few people about WoTW and I want to stress I KNOW its about numbers/team work etc but there is still an elephant in the room that if you look at it from this point of view it makes a lot of sense. And I think if the % system included this on both sides it would work fine.
Fyi this information is based on a lvl 107 dev archer and subxero Lvl 107 Archer hits 417-503 with No attack armour just standard armour. Using a 91-123 bow Take the % system last night sticks it on about 140 str which would brings its melle dmg to 350-436 This is taking into account he % system only effects str/con/wis etc (not dex or wep dmg) So at 67.5% a dev still hits 350-436 with 200+ dex (by far better than any hsoma archer) Now sub is a good archer and hits about 337-397 with 144 dex at 100% with very op Hsoma gear bear in mind he does hit faster I agree. So you can see the difference here, imagine a duel is what am saying. But a human non tank build i.e mage/archer will have around 250 ish DF so you can see how the dmg will still be very high. Even sub last night in +9/10 str rings, fort gear had 367 max DF and PD still took huge dmg from devils. While I hsoma In that gear he would take min dmg from most archers. So if the % system took into account the f10 dmg AND dex this I think would be about right If % system took into account f10 and dex it would bring that archer to 281-340 dmg with 150 ish dex which is still good but wont 3 hit most humans. Tbh that is about what most capped hsoma archer are at without op gear. Which after having the conti for the best part of 3-4 months I think is even still a fair fight for the devils. Just a thought to try and ring it into balance When you look at the math it does make a lot of sense. PLEASE DO NO TURN THIS INTO A FLAME THREAD, I wanted to look at this from a maths perspective as when you do that you normally see the bigger picture. And this does clear things up for me to understand it a lot more. Constructive discussion only please no hate.
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[quote="SUBXERO"]So I spoke to a few people about WoTW and I want to stress I KNOW its about numbers/team work etc but there is still an elephant in the room that if you look at it from this point of view it makes a lot of sense. And I think if the % system included this on both sides it would work fine.
Fyi this information is based on a lvl 107 dev archer and subxero
Lvl 107 Archer hits 417-503 with No attack armour just standard armour. Using a 91-123 bow
Take the % system last night sticks it on about 140 str which would brings its melle dmg to 350-436
This is taking into account he % system only effects str/con/wis etc (not dex or wep dmg)
So at 67.5% a dev still hits 350-436 with 200+ dex (by far better than any hsoma archer)
Now sub is a good archer and hits about 337-397 with 144 dex at 100% with very op Hsoma gear bear in mind he does hit faster I agree. So you can see the difference here, imagine a duel is what am saying.
But a human non tank build i.e mage/archer will have around 250 ish DF so you can see how the dmg will still be very high. Even sub last night in +9/10 str rings, fort gear had 367 max DF and PD still took huge dmg from devils. While I hsoma In that gear he would take min dmg from most archers.
So if the % system took into account the f10 dmg AND dex this I think would be about right
If % system took into account f10 and dex it would bring that archer to 281-340 dmg with 150 ish dex which is still good but wont 3 hit most humans. Tbh that is about what most capped hsoma archer are at without op gear. Which after having the conti for the best part of 3-4 months I think is even still a fair fight for the devils.
Just a thought to try and ring it into balance When you look at the math it does make a lot of sense.
PLEASE DO NO TURN THIS INTO A FLAME THREAD, I wanted to look at this from a maths perspective as when you do that you normally see the bigger picture. And this does clear things up for me to understand it a lot more. Constructive discussion only please no hate.
[/quote]
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#1 2018/07/22 07:43:54 |
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GANDALF |
I don’t wanna flame but I get 2 hit every war on my devil by most mages, it is purely a numbers game and every week I see x3 more VK/Espada/NM at gvw than wotw, if conti is that important why don’t you get them all on one extra night?
On your points, you mention nerfing devils to f10 stats and having 281-340 attack, AND state you have 367 max defense, so all dev archers are going to be doing 1? To you, I can see why that appeals. Being a hsoma mage I hate the damage I take BUT I understand I give it back using int, humans just never turn up enough to make it matter. I don’t see there being an issue if humans don’t turn up in the same numbers as gvw... The system works/ has worked for well over a year, it’s just that DL were / are fed up of being the only humans to attend regularly, if the majority of hsoma can only be bothered to log for gvw why should that hinder devs even more in RVR? I’ve tried not to flame as I’ve attended on both sides in the past few months, devs shouldn’t be punished for being organised and humans not attending.
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[quote="GANDALF"]I don’t wanna flame but I get 2 hit every war on my devil by most mages, it is purely a numbers game and every week I see x3 more VK/Espada/NM at gvw than wotw, if conti is that important why don’t you get them all on one extra night?
On your points, you mention nerfing devils to f10 stats and having 281-340 attack, AND state you have 367 max defense, so all dev archers are going to be doing 1? To you, I can see why that appeals.
Being a hsoma mage I hate the damage I take BUT I understand I give it back using int, humans just never turn up enough to make it matter.
I don’t see there being an issue if humans don’t turn up in the same numbers as gvw...
The system works/ has worked for well over a year, it’s just that DL were / are fed up of being the only humans to attend regularly, if the majority of hsoma can only be bothered to log for gvw why should that hinder devs even more in RVR?
I’ve tried not to flame as I’ve attended on both sides in the past few months, devs shouldn’t be punished for being organised and humans not attending. [/quote]
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#2 2018/07/22 08:05:58 |
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BENZYL |
This belongs in ideas and suggestions
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#3 2018/07/22 08:08:44 |
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FRINGE |
increase total % back to 200 and have humans at 135% atm
would soon even itself back out. with a few weeks of human wins |
#4 2018/07/22 08:19:16 |
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JAHEIRA |
"FRINGE"increase total % back to 200 and have humans at 135% atm Bigger % drop each week would sort it Tho dont agree that it should be changed and left to sort itself out, any change should bring the % bk to a even chance Tho then again any change that evens it out current and you would see humans that have never been to wotw and devils will get owned
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[quote="JAHEIRA"][quote="FRINGE"]increase total % back to 200 and have humans at 135% atm
would soon even itself back out. with a few weeks of human wins[/quote]
Bigger % drop each week would sort it
Tho dont agree that it should be changed and left to sort itself out, any change should bring the % bk to a even chance
Tho then again any change that evens it out current and you would see humans that have never been to wotw and devils will get owned[/quote]
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#5 2018/07/22 08:23:45 |
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MERLIN |
Wotw % got changed to be based on damage dealt not stats
My take on it is: Your archer avg damage 460(round numbers) Your defense: avg 340? 120 damage them % of that so you would take 78 dmg per hit? (In your example) The issue you have is most archers since 100+ raise use pod gear which seriously increases damage dealt From patch notes: Humans Versus Devils and Guild Village War We have heard and listened to all you feedback concerning the percent system. The percent is now applied to the damage value instead of attack and defense (F10 stats). This has been changed because the other method caused massive reduction in damage for some classes and big increases in damage for other classes, with the change it is now equal for all. We have also applied the percent system to healing. This will alter heal amounts and therefore the damage caused by the target having the Zombie spell.
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[quote="MERLIN"]Wotw % got changed to be based on damage dealt not stats
My take on it is:
Your archer avg damage 460(round numbers)
Your defense: avg 340?
120 damage them % of that so you would take 78 dmg per hit? (In your example)
The issue you have is most archers since 100+ raise use pod gear which seriously increases damage dealt
From patch notes:
Humans Versus Devils and Guild Village War
We have heard and listened to all you feedback concerning the percent system. The percent is now applied to the damage value instead of attack and defense (F10 stats). This has been changed because the other method caused massive reduction in damage for some classes and big increases in damage for other classes, with the change it is now equal for all.
We have also applied the percent system to healing. This will alter heal amounts and therefore the damage caused by the target having the Zombie spell.[/quote]
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#6 2018/07/22 08:39:11 |
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MERLIN |
For reference a lvl 105 hsoma mage with capped int in very average ma gear deals 315ma average (just checked mine)
A 110 dev axer with capped out wis and full md robes has 205md (very few have this much wis/md) a standard dsoma axer has 90.wis and cant wear robes as requirements are too high - so have 100 md while using dev ally rings So if humans started spam weaken like they used to they would deal 220 damage per hit (430 damage per hit to a standard capped dsoma axer)
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[quote="MERLIN"]For reference a lvl 105 hsoma mage with capped int in very average ma gear deals 315ma average (just checked mine)
A 110 dev axer with capped out wis and full md robes has 205md (very few have this much wis/md) a standard dsoma axer has 90.wis and cant wear robes as requirements are too high - so have 100 md while using dev ally rings
So if humans started spam weaken like they used to they would deal 220 damage per hit
(430 damage per hit to a standard capped dsoma axer)[/quote]
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#7 2018/07/22 08:47:34 |
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TYRESE |
No flaming intended here at all.
But wotw has always been about team work and sacrificing you need to get kills to enable other chars to get the kills. For example sub has great eva and dex access along with zombie spell, there for play the tank role and cast zombie on devils while you have a weaken char also and two / three mages. That way no devil will manage to put pot serum and survive. Many Hsoma chars have str dex chars which from esoma we all knew was useless vs devils. If you want to be competitive you need a mix of chars. You simply cannot just say melee chars need to be able to hurt devils. All this is coming from the highest dex str char ingame so I understand the draw backs. As for the % system I do think a bigger drop each week would be a good thing to help conti change hands on a more regular basis.
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[quote="TYRESE"]No flaming intended here at all.
But wotw has always been about team work and sacrificing you need to get kills to enable other chars to get the kills. For example sub has great eva and dex access along with zombie spell, there for play the tank role and cast zombie on devils while you have a weaken char also and two / three mages. That way no devil will manage to put pot serum and survive.
Many Hsoma chars have str dex chars which from esoma we all knew was useless vs devils. If you want to be competitive you need a mix of chars. You simply cannot just say melee chars need to be able to hurt devils.
All this is coming from the highest dex str char ingame so I understand the draw backs.
As for the % system I do think a bigger drop each week would be a good thing to help conti change hands on a more regular basis.[/quote]
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#8 2018/07/22 09:02:49 |
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ADIUM |
"TYRESE"But wotw has always been about team work and sacrificing you need to get kills to enable other chars to get the kills. For example sub has great eva and dex access along with zombie spell, there for play the tank role and cast zombie on devils while you have a weaken char also and two / three mages. That way no devil will manage to put pot serum and survive. Unless you're a devil, where it requires no teamwork to mow through humans? "TYRESE"Many Hsoma chars have str dex chars which from esoma we all knew was useless vs devils. If you want to be competitive you need a mix of chars. You simply cannot just say melee chars need to be able to hurt devils. But Esoma was a different game... why should a str/dex focused human be unable to compete against a devil? In regards to the numbers argument, wouldn't it be better if the races were balanced from the start and the percentage was adjusted depending on the turnout each week? Wouldn't that also be more fun for all involved? (also no flaming intended)
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[quote="ADIUM"][quote="TYRESE"]But wotw has always been about team work and sacrificing you need to get kills to enable other chars to get the kills. For example sub has great eva and dex access along with zombie spell, there for play the tank role and cast zombie on devils while you have a weaken char also and two / three mages. That way no devil will manage to put pot serum and survive.[/quote]
Unless you're a devil, where it requires no teamwork to mow through humans?
[quote="TYRESE"]Many Hsoma chars have str dex chars which from esoma we all knew was useless vs devils. If you want to be competitive you need a mix of chars. You simply cannot just say melee chars need to be able to hurt devils.[/quote]
But Esoma was a different game... why should a str/dex focused human be unable to compete against a devil?
In regards to the numbers argument, wouldn't it be better if the races were balanced from the start and the percentage was adjusted depending on the turnout each week? Wouldn't that also be more fun for all involved?
(also no flaming intended)
[/quote]
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#9 2018/07/23 12:17:30 |
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JON |
Didn't Dan say they were addressing RVR in the upcoming patch?
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#10 2018/07/23 12:24:45 |
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TYRESE |
Esoma is the same game as this. This has had some quality of life adjustments but the way in which devils and humans fight is no different. Therefore people who played esoma should’ve known better. I’m not arguing that the % should be based on a turn out or ever a 5% decrease in power per wotw to speed it up. What I’m trying to say is that for 15 years humans can not compete with devils in melee and we ALL know this. Why keep moaning about it week in week out when there are plenty of spare mage chars available instead of these dex monkeys?
You never heard DL moan about devils being too strong on a weekly basis. We or more people online and helped our mages and we won conti for the rest of Hsoma more often than not single handedly. VK could learn a thing or two with less moaning, more organisation and less selfishness. That’s a very clear and honest observation.
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[quote="TYRESE"]Esoma is the same game as this. This has had some quality of life adjustments but the way in which devils and humans fight is no different. Therefore people who played esoma should’ve known better. I’m not arguing that the % should be based on a turn out or ever a 5% decrease in power per wotw to speed it up. What I’m trying to say is that for 15 years humans can not compete with devils in melee and we ALL know this. Why keep moaning about it week in week out when there are plenty of spare mage chars available instead of these dex monkeys?
You never heard DL moan about devils being too strong on a weekly basis. We or more people online and helped our mages and we won conti for the rest of Hsoma more often than not single handedly. VK could learn a thing or two with less moaning, more organisation and less selfishness.
That’s a very clear and honest observation.[/quote]
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#11 2018/07/23 12:31:07 |
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CUPID |
PLEASE DO NO TURN THIS INTO A FLAME THREAD that lasted long lol. Id give up matty, DL/Dsoma will always say ur just complaining... just let gms work it out and whats needs to be done let them decide. I for one am fed up of discussing it lol. |
#12 2018/07/23 13:01:19 |
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SHAILO |
"SUBXERO"So I spoke to a few people about WoTW and I want to stress I KNOW its about numbers/team work etc but there is still an elephant in the room that if you look at it from this point of view it makes a lot of sense. And I think if the % system included this on both sides it would work fine. The thread makes sense. I totally agree to an extent. It works both ways. Melle archers destroy humans, mage humans destroy devs. However, if yous showed the force you showed yesterday, you would stomp all over devs at wotw, even if devs were on a higher %. I would come. However I'm literally winning conti on my dev to level my dev for capraise (have done this for last cap raise) I'm sure after cap raise or even before most people will want humans to win.
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[quote="SHAILO"][quote="SUBXERO"]So I spoke to a few people about WoTW and I want to stress I KNOW its about numbers/team work etc but there is still an elephant in the room that if you look at it from this point of view it makes a lot of sense. And I think if the % system included this on both sides it would work fine.
Fyi this information is based on a lvl 107 dev archer and subxero
Lvl 107 Archer hits 417-503 with No attack armour just standard armour. Using a 91-123 bow
Take the % system last night sticks it on about 140 str which would brings its melle dmg to 350-436
This is taking into account he % system only effects str/con/wis etc (not dex or wep dmg)
So at 67.5% a dev still hits 350-436 with 200+ dex (by far better than any hsoma archer)
Now sub is a good archer and hits about 337-397 with 144 dex at 100% with very op Hsoma gear bear in mind he does hit faster I agree. So you can see the difference here, imagine a duel is what am saying.
But a human non tank build i.e mage/archer will have around 250 ish DF so you can see how the dmg will still be very high. Even sub last night in +9/10 str rings, fort gear had 367 max DF and PD still took huge dmg from devils. While I hsoma In that gear he would take min dmg from most archers.
So if the % system took into account the f10 dmg AND dex this I think would be about right
If % system took into account f10 and dex it would bring that archer to 281-340 dmg with 150 ish dex which is still good but wont 3 hit most humans. Tbh that is about what most capped hsoma archer are at without op gear. Which after having the conti for the best part of 3-4 months I think is even still a fair fight for the devils.
Just a thought to try and ring it into balance When you look at the math it does make a lot of sense.
PLEASE DO NO TURN THIS INTO A FLAME THREAD, I wanted to look at this from a maths perspective as when you do that you normally see the bigger picture. And this does clear things up for me to understand it a lot more. Constructive discussion only please no hate.
[/quote]
The thread makes sense.
I totally agree to an extent. It works both ways. Melle archers destroy humans, mage humans destroy devs.
However, if yous showed the force you showed yesterday, you would stomp all over devs at wotw, even if devs were on a higher %.
I would come. However I'm literally winning conti on my dev to level my dev for capraise (have done this for last cap raise)
I'm sure after cap raise or even before most people will want humans to win.
[/quote]
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#13 2018/07/23 13:04:31 |
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TYROZET |
If your a class that doesn't hurt a devil why not use one of other options like stone, weaken, zombie, etc etc
Just because you can't one bomb someone doesn't mean you are not useful in the fight Hurts me to say this but when DL use to come to Conti to fight, there organisation of stoners, mages etc makes it a challenge Never really fought VK in conti tbh so can't comment on there tactics
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[quote="TYROZET"]If your a class that doesn't hurt a devil why not use one of other options like stone, weaken, zombie, etc etc
Just because you can't one bomb someone doesn't mean you are not useful in the fight
Hurts me to say this but when DL use to come to Conti to fight, there organisation of stoners, mages etc makes it a challenge
Never really fought VK in conti tbh so can't comment on there tactics [/quote]
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#14 2018/07/23 13:07:22 |
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TYRESE |
Cupid, nobody is arguing. We are having a discussion. We all have valid points we want to get across, just because I don’t agree with Matty wanting humans to hurt devils melee wise and he doesn’t agree with me that you have to rely on team work and possibly being a support char doesn’t mean we are arguing.
You still run out of blacks last night and still blind today?
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[quote="TYRESE"]Cupid, nobody is arguing. We are having a discussion. We all have valid points we want to get across, just because I don’t agree with Matty wanting humans to hurt devils melee wise and he doesn’t agree with me that you have to rely on team work and possibly being a support char doesn’t mean we are arguing.
You still run out of blacks last night and still blind today?[/quote]
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#15 2018/07/23 13:09:56 |
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