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Increase skill req for Nega weapons:
| Author | Content | Date |
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GENTRY |
"DENZEL""GENTRY""LEON1DAS"Make a better dex mage or make more dex / eva :) Can you name at least 5 people with this build who actively PKs on either side of the alliance? If you can I'll +1 all these ideas. Most mages, due to cap raise, have a lot of strength often at times more than melee characters... hence my previous point. Just read the sentences instead of venting :).
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[quote="GENTRY"][quote="DENZEL"][quote="GENTRY"][quote="LEON1DAS"]Make a better dex mage or make more dex / eva :)
3rd Aura allows you to cast which means that if you had a half decent char/gear you wouldn't have this issue mate.[/quote]
This is what I was going to respond with.
If you want stone to be str based, and skill based. You will find that mages will be made even more stronger compared to melee (who have already been at a heavy disadvantage since cap raise and hero accessories came out).
[/quote]
This isn't about going after 1 individuals character. It's about addressing the issue that people being able to have almost top tier weapons and still have stone, which lasts the exact same amount of time regardless if you have 10 str/80 skill and using 3rd or 239 str and 200 skill and using 5th. How does that make sense? It's like having a dodge aura for bow that always gives you 75% evasion on anyone, regardless of theirs or your gear/stats
Mages would have 0 advantage if it was based on str, dex or axe skill, as a warrior would usually have more in everyone of these than a mage. [/quote]
Can you name at least 5 people with this build who actively PKs on either side of the alliance? If you can I'll +1 all these ideas.
Most mages, due to cap raise, have a lot of strength often at times more than melee characters... hence my previous point. Just read the sentences instead of venting :).
[/quote]
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#16 2020/06/19 12:12:13 |
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DENZEL |
"GENTRY" There is no venting here, I want what's best for the longevity of this server, the best way to make everything a level playing field. You didn't address my points, all I see is "I have this build so I don't want it changing". Which I understand, but what's the point in having a fantastic character build if there's nobody to play with? There are 2 issues at hand here. 1. Nega weapon skill requirements 2. Duration/effect of 3rd/5th stone Just because there aren't many people who have this build doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist. That's like saying "Only 2 people knew how to dupe items so why should it be fixed?". Nega weapons are top tier weapon and their skill requirement should accurately reflect that. I get why they aren't higher. It leaves room for more weapons before having to increase the skill cap or every weapon just being 200 skill. But they are too low, increasing them to 185+ would help this problem, but not solve it because stone is another kettle of fish altogether. I only know of 1 "mage" who has higher than 220 str because they did 0 dex, literally axed from the start and they don't have INT cap so they will never do as much damage as a "true" mage. There could be more, but the number will be extremely low. If people are worried about mages still being OP because of it being str/skill based, add dex into the mix. Give stone a chance to miss, give it a shorter duration based on the str/dex/skill of the people using it. The way it is at the moment is stupid. 3rd/5th stone should have longer/shorter durations for something, anything other than just level based. Originally, stone being level based was fine, because everyone was a different level but most people are the same level now. Something needs to be done because a 3rd stone from someone who has 80 skill/10 str/dex shouldn't last the same amount of time as someone with 230 str, 5th axe and 180 dex. How does that make sense? It's like having a dodge aura for bow that always gives you 75% evasion on anyone, regardless of theirs or your gear/stats
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[quote="DENZEL"][quote="GENTRY"]
Can you name at least 5 people with this build who actively PKs on either side of the alliance? If you can I'll +1 all these ideas.
Most mages, due to cap raise, have a lot of strength often at times more than melee characters... hence my previous point. Just read the sentences instead of venting :).
[/quote]
There is no venting here, I want what's best for the longevity of this server, the best way to make everything a level playing field. You didn't address my points, all I see is "I have this build so I don't want it changing". Which I understand, but what's the point in having a fantastic character build if there's nobody to play with?
There are 2 issues at hand here.
1. Nega weapon skill requirements
2. Duration/effect of 3rd/5th stone
Just because there aren't many people who have this build doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist. That's like saying "Only 2 people knew how to dupe items so why should it be fixed?".
Nega weapons are top tier weapon and their skill requirement should accurately reflect that. I get why they aren't higher. It leaves room for more weapons before having to increase the skill cap or every weapon just being 200 skill. But they are too low, increasing them to 185+ would help this problem, but not solve it because stone is another kettle of fish altogether.
I only know of 1 "mage" who has higher than 220 str because they did 0 dex, literally axed from the start and they don't have INT cap so they will never do as much damage as a "true" mage. There could be more, but the number will be extremely low. If people are worried about mages still being OP because of it being str/skill based, add dex into the mix. Give stone a chance to miss, give it a shorter duration based on the str/dex/skill of the people using it. The way it is at the moment is stupid. 3rd/5th stone should have longer/shorter durations for [b]something, anything[/b] other than just level based.
Originally, stone being level based was fine, because everyone was a different level but most people are the same level now. Something needs to be done because a 3rd stone from someone who has 80 skill/10 str/dex shouldn't last the same amount of time as someone with 230 str, 5th axe and 180 dex. How does that make sense? It's like having a dodge aura for bow that always gives you 75% evasion on anyone, regardless of theirs or your gear/stats[/quote]
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#17 2020/06/19 13:02:53 |
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GENTRY |
"DENZEL""GENTRY" Ok, you might not be venting but you want what's best for the server. It's been up for nearly 7 years now, and this so called "problem" has never been addressed over the 7 years. Because it's clear that 5th stone is miles better than 3rd stone for many reasons (mentioned in previous posts in this thread) and it's why people spend a lot to get 5th... I did not make the build, Zyzz made (or popularised) the build. When he was using this build, there were no complaints from anyone. But when Tibi is met with the same build, it's a forum post attacking the few people with the build because he can't compromise his ego to warp when he sees a better player. It's really not like having 3rd stone being as it is now will make entire guilds quit, don't exaggerate that much. The two issues at hand, let's address them. 1) Nega weapon skill requirements. Why worry about skill when the weapons themselves haven't been thought out? It would have been so nice to have community interaction between GM and us so that we can have a truly balanced new tier set of weapons. Maybe that could happen for the next weapon set? 2) Duration and effect of 3rd/5th stone. Should they be the same duration? Yes. 3rd bow acts the same as 5th bow. 3rd spear acts the same as 5th spear. 3rd sword acts the same as 5th sword. All of their effects are the same, but it's their efficiency which is why people would use 5th over 3rd in any skill and is why they are categorised into 3rd and 5th. If you're asking for change in just one skill, please revamp all of the thirds. It's also been mentioned that 3rd stone could be negated completely if had more dex, my advice is to look to train dex next cap raise. I agree with your next point, just because the build works for certain scenario's such as 1v1s 2v2s, doesn't mean it should be wiped from the game. It obviously has it's cons (using an apus bow from 2013 means that you have to confirm range 1 or range 2 spots at bosses, apus bow damage is obviously very bad, it isn't meant for 220 str characters with 300 defence). And those are cons which I'll deal with. Psycho, BSB, mammoth mauler etc. were the new tier of weapons back in the day, and they only increased from e.g stinger to psycho was 143 to 155. Nega tier weapons have their skill assigned appropriately at 173 for the new nega bow. It's just their durability, recoil and damage that are questionable. Stone has literally been around since 2013. There hasn't been a real urge to remove it ever, since the new age of PKers who can't cope with getting stoned. You might only know 1 mage, but there are plenty more I'll tell you that. There are many new mages leveling everyday following the OP +50 stat bonus route doing no dex, but will then complain about dex requirements on OP accessories. If third was as OP as you claim it is to be, then mages would not collect shards or pos to get 5th stone. The game is full of flaws, but nerfing an entire build isn't the solution. If you see someone who you know is better than you, don't be a mong and just warp simple.
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[quote="GENTRY"][quote="DENZEL"][quote="GENTRY"]
Can you name at least 5 people with this build who actively PKs on either side of the alliance? If you can I'll +1 all these ideas.
Most mages, due to cap raise, have a lot of strength often at times more than melee characters... hence my previous point. Just read the sentences instead of venting :).
[/quote]
There is no venting here, I want what's best for the longevity of this server, the best way to make everything a level playing field. You didn't address my points, all I see is "I have this build so I don't want it changing". Which I understand, but what's the point in having a fantastic character build if there's nobody to play with?
There are 2 issues at hand here.
1. Nega weapon skill requirements
2. Duration/effect of 3rd/5th stone
Just because there aren't many people who have this build doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist. That's like saying "Only 2 people knew how to dupe items so why should it be fixed?".
Nega weapons are top tier weapon and their skill requirement should accurately reflect that. I get why they aren't higher. It leaves room for more weapons before having to increase the skill cap or every weapon just being 200 skill. But they are too low, increasing them to 185+ would help this problem, but not solve it because stone is another kettle of fish altogether.
I only know of 1 "mage" who has higher than 220 str because they did 0 dex, literally axed from the start and they don't have INT cap so they will never do as much damage as a "true" mage. There could be more, but the number will be extremely low. If people are worried about mages still being OP because of it being str/skill based, add dex into the mix. Give stone a chance to miss, give it a shorter duration based on the str/dex/skill of the people using it. The way it is at the moment is stupid. 3rd/5th stone should have longer/shorter durations for [b]something, anything[/b] other than just level based.
Originally, stone being level based was fine, because everyone was a different level but most people are the same level now. Something needs to be done because a 3rd stone from someone who has 80 skill/10 str/dex shouldn't last the same amount of time as someone with 230 str, 5th axe and 180 dex. How does that make sense? It's like having a dodge aura for bow that always gives you 75% evasion on anyone, regardless of theirs or your gear/stats[/quote]
Ok, you might not be venting but you want what's best for the server. It's been up for nearly 7 years now, and this so called "problem" has never been addressed over the 7 years. Because it's clear that 5th stone is miles better than 3rd stone for many reasons (mentioned in previous posts in this thread) and it's why people spend a lot to get 5th...
I did not make the build, Zyzz made (or popularised) the build. When he was using this build, there were no complaints from anyone. But when Tibi is met with the same build, it's a forum post attacking the few people with the build because he can't compromise his ego to warp when he sees a better player. It's really not like having 3rd stone being as it is now will make entire guilds quit, don't exaggerate that much.
The two issues at hand, let's address them.
1) Nega weapon skill requirements. Why worry about skill when the weapons themselves haven't been thought out? It would have been so nice to have community interaction between GM and us so that we can have a truly balanced new tier set of weapons. Maybe that could happen for the next weapon set?
2) Duration and effect of 3rd/5th stone. Should they be the same duration? Yes. 3rd bow acts the same as 5th bow. 3rd spear acts the same as 5th spear. 3rd sword acts the same as 5th sword. All of their effects are the same, but it's their efficiency which is why people would use 5th over 3rd in any skill and is why they are categorised into 3rd and 5th. If you're asking for change in just one skill, please revamp all of the thirds. It's also been mentioned that 3rd stone could be negated completely if had more dex, my advice is to look to train dex next cap raise.
I agree with your next point, just because the build works for certain scenario's such as 1v1s 2v2s, doesn't mean it should be wiped from the game. It obviously has it's cons (using an apus bow from 2013 means that you have to confirm range 1 or range 2 spots at bosses, apus bow damage is obviously very bad, it isn't meant for 220 str characters with 300 defence). And those are cons which I'll deal with.
Psycho, BSB, mammoth mauler etc. were the new tier of weapons back in the day, and they only increased from e.g stinger to psycho was 143 to 155. Nega tier weapons have their skill assigned appropriately at 173 for the new nega bow. It's just their durability, recoil and damage that are questionable.
Stone has literally been around since 2013. There hasn't been a real urge to remove it ever, since the new age of PKers who can't cope with getting stoned.
You might only know 1 mage, but there are plenty more I'll tell you that. There are many new mages leveling everyday following the OP +50 stat bonus route doing no dex, but will then complain about dex requirements on OP accessories.
If third was as OP as you claim it is to be, then mages would not collect shards or pos to get 5th stone. The game is full of flaws, but nerfing an entire build isn't the solution. If you see someone who you know is better than you, don't be a mong and just warp simple. [/quote]
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#18 2020/06/19 14:18:50 |
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OPENTHEDOOR |
Dan has said a few times that a new tier of weps are coming. I imagine they would be ~185 skill range or so.
This really is not a long term problem. And I’d argue it’s not a short term either but it will be fixed naturally with the new weps. |
#19 2020/06/19 14:54:11 |
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DENZEL |
"GENTRY" . I agree, the current weapons need looking at. Allowing more of a player input would really help. There's alot about a game that you can only learn by playing it. Some people have spent tens of thousands of hours playing this server, learning it inside and out. Why is stone an issue now? We can all agree that with the introduction of +2 anvil, increased flat drop rates, double drops events and a few more quests has allowed people to obtain gear alot easier than before. I would say even newly capped warriors would now have +4/+5 of their main weapon? Mages get a guaranteed rare damned staff from questing. Armour and accessory upgrades are up. +4/+5 str armour pieces aren't uncommon. +3 to +5 troll rings, +3 to +5 proc rings. Hero necklace/earring for free. All of this increases the damage output massively. 1 stone usually results in an instant death, even if it's only 2 or 3 people. Defense upgrade's defeinitely help, but no where near enough to mitigate the increase in damage output. This means if you get stoned, you are so much more likely to die. The probability of death increases massively for however many people have stone because of the duration being level based. I have too much time on my hands and made this to show the difference in having top tier weapons combined with stone.  The numbers speak for themself really. Why can you have Frenzied Sabre/Sterling Polearm with stone and still have skill for a second 5th aura? If you chose Polearm, which is arguably the highest DPS and range 2, you are still able to use 4/6 of the 2nd top tier weapons. If you chose either of those 2 weapons as your main weapon you instantly have a massive advantage in pvp because of stone as mentioned above. "OPENTHEDOOR"Dan has said a few times that a new tier of weps are coming. I imagine they would be ~185 skill range or so. It's a problem now but because of the speed and damage of the tier 1/2 weapons. It could still cause a massive issue even if new weapons/armours are introduced.
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[quote="DENZEL"][quote="GENTRY"] . [/quote]
I agree, the current weapons need looking at. Allowing more of a player input would really help. There's alot about a game that you can only learn by playing it. Some people have spent tens of thousands of hours playing this server, learning it inside and out.
Why is stone an issue now? We can all agree that with the introduction of +2 anvil, increased flat drop rates, double drops events and a few more quests has allowed people to obtain gear alot easier than before. I would say even newly capped warriors would now have +4/+5 of their main weapon? Mages get a guaranteed rare damned staff from questing. Armour and accessory upgrades are up. +4/+5 str armour pieces aren't uncommon. +3 to +5 troll rings, +3 to +5 proc rings. Hero necklace/earring for free. All of this increases the damage output massively. 1 stone usually results in an instant death, even if it's only 2 or 3 people. Defense upgrade's defeinitely help, but no where near enough to mitigate the increase in damage output. This means if you get stoned, you are so much more likely to die. The probability of death increases massively for however many people have stone because of the duration being level based.
I have too much time on my hands and made this to show the difference in having top tier weapons combined with stone.
[IMG]https://img.techpowerup.org/200619/skills.jpg[/IMG]
The numbers speak for themself really. Why can you have Frenzied Sabre/Sterling Polearm with stone and still have skill for a second 5th aura? If you chose Polearm, which is arguably the highest DPS and range 2, you are still able to use 4/6 of the 2nd top tier weapons. If you chose either of those 2 weapons as your main weapon you instantly have a massive advantage in pvp because of stone as mentioned above.
[quote="OPENTHEDOOR"]Dan has said a few times that a new tier of weps are coming. I imagine they would be ~185 skill range or so.
This really is not a long term problem. And I’d argue it’s not a short term either but it will be fixed naturally with the new weps.[/quote]
It's a problem now but because of the speed and damage of the tier 1/2 weapons. It could still cause a massive issue even if new weapons/armours are introduced. [/quote]
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#20 2020/06/19 17:15:21 |
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GENTRY |
"DENZEL""GENTRY" . Increase polearm skill to 185 then?
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[quote="GENTRY"][quote="DENZEL"][quote="GENTRY"] . [/quote]
I agree, the current weapons need looking at. Allowing more of a player input would really help. There's alot about a game that you can only learn by playing it. Some people have spent tens of thousands of hours playing this server, learning it inside and out.
Why is stone an issue now? We can all agree that with the introduction of +2 anvil, increased flat drop rates, double drops events and a few more quests has allowed people to obtain gear alot easier than before. I would say even newly capped warriors would now have +4/+5 of their main weapon? Mages get a guaranteed rare damned staff from questing. Armour and accessory upgrades are up. +4/+5 str armour pieces aren't uncommon. +3 to +5 troll rings, +3 to +5 proc rings. Hero necklace/earring for free. All of this increases the damage output massively. 1 stone usually results in an instant death, even if it's only 2 or 3 people. Defense upgrade's defeinitely help, but no where near enough to mitigate the increase in damage output. This means if you get stoned, you are so much more likely to die. The probability of death increases massively for however many people have stone because of the duration being level based.
I have too much time on my hands and made this to show the difference in having top tier weapons combined with stone.
[IMG]https://img.techpowerup.org/200619/skills.jpg[/IMG]
The numbers speak for themself really. Why can you have Frenzied Sabre/Sterling Polearm with stone and still have skill for a second 5th aura? If you chose Polearm, which is arguably the highest DPS and range 2, you are still able to use 4/6 of the 2nd top tier weapons. If you chose either of those 2 weapons as your main weapon you instantly have a massive advantage in pvp because of stone as mentioned above.
[quote="OPENTHEDOOR"]Dan has said a few times that a new tier of weps are coming. I imagine they would be ~185 skill range or so.
This really is not a long term problem. And I’d argue it’s not a short term either but it will be fixed naturally with the new weps.[/quote]
It's a problem now but because of the speed and damage of the tier 1/2 weapons. It could still cause a massive issue even if new weapons/armours are introduced. [/quote]
Increase polearm skill to 185 then? [/quote]
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#21 2020/06/19 18:31:57 |
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DENZEL |
It's not just polearm, frenzied saber too. Then there's the issue of stone but I think that's another thread for another day
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#22 2020/06/19 20:02:15 |
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TIBI |
I’m not attacking anyone - I collected ideas and feedback over the last few months and decided to post them all up. That is why there are multiple threads. I am sorry if you feel personally attacked by this because you happen to take advantage of this type of build. But this isn’t about you - otherwise I’d have just made a discussion hall post naming you.
What Denzel has posted is spot on and complete analysis of the ideas/changes I’ve proposed.
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[quote="TIBI"]I’m not attacking anyone - I collected ideas and feedback over the last few months and decided to post them all up. That is why there are multiple threads. I am sorry if you feel personally attacked by this because you happen to take advantage of this type of build. But this isn’t about you - otherwise I’d have just made a discussion hall post naming you.
What Denzel has posted is spot on and complete analysis of the ideas/changes I’ve proposed. [/quote]
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#23 2020/06/19 22:17:38 |
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GENTRY |
"TIBI"I’m not attacking anyone - I collected ideas and feedback over the last few months and decided to post them all up. That is why there are multiple threads. I am sorry if you feel personally attacked by this because you happen to take advantage of this type of build. But this isn’t about you - otherwise I’d have just made a discussion hall post naming you. When I'm the only active guy with my build, who fights you, it does feel personal. Don't try act like it's not lols
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[quote="GENTRY"][quote="TIBI"]I’m not attacking anyone - I collected ideas and feedback over the last few months and decided to post them all up. That is why there are multiple threads. I am sorry if you feel personally attacked by this because you happen to take advantage of this type of build. But this isn’t about you - otherwise I’d have just made a discussion hall post naming you.
What Denzel has posted is spot on and complete analysis of the ideas/changes I’ve proposed. [/quote]
When I'm the only active guy with my build, who fights you, it does feel personal. Don't try act like it's not lols[/quote]
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#24 2020/06/20 00:14:35 |
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GENTRY |
  Guys it's not personal 🌚 3 AM pm's 🤣🤣 |
#25 2020/06/20 02:09:45 |
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DENZEL |
If you want to have a go at each other do it in pm please. This thread has some very good points
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#26 2020/06/20 07:37:43 |
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MAVERICK |
LOOOL
PLAYER 1 TOO OP> PLS NERF HIM> ICBA MAKING A BETTER CHAR THAN TIBI T_T. |
#27 2020/06/22 19:31:07 |
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TIBI |
As has been made repeatedly clear - this is not about any one particular player. The key information has been laid out clearly by Denzel.
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#28 2020/06/22 23:23:18 |
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AENUS |
Lmao this is to funny -100
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#29 2020/06/23 01:49:29 |
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