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SLAYER |
"PATHOLOGIST"Judging by the stat allocations, we can see that you don't actually think Axers are the problem, so the argument has shifted once again... it's more than 8-10 more str than a non punched archer, archers would cap at 195 str without punching, and that's leveling optimally.. and yeah but then we can go round in circles how older chars had to do more and received less, it's just how the game evolves. You actually make a good point in that mage is pointless atm (unless you want to punch), with the new system it can be made a class worth playing, as punching can be made unnecessary to make it a viable pvp option, i'm pretty sure in time that will attract more people to the class. You also forget a number of people in the old thread said they were put off playing as they felt they had to punch (be it on an archer or on a mage) to compete at the top level. So if someone wants to play an archer now, they would still need to punch from 88-100 to be comparable with the 'best' in class. Same with a mage as you have clearly pointed out. Edit: these are just counter points to your points, there are numerous other benefits we keep repeating in regards to the new stat allocation system.
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[quote="SLAYER"][quote="PATHOLOGIST"]Judging by the stat allocations, we can see that you don't actually think Axers are the problem, so the argument has shifted once again...
The real argument is;
"Is the current game unbalanced or broken?"
A couple of punch characters are undesirable and so this alleged balance needs to be implemented...
Lets have a look;
Intheface
Pros- Easily tanks hsoma, can do Magmas with ease, takes less damage from dsoma mages.
Cons- Useless vs knucklers, axers, swordies, spearmen, archers, cant really pressure any human on his own either.
Evil_JR, Prometheus, Wagawaga.
Pros- about 8-10 more Str than a non-punch archer, shed-loads more int.
Cons- Hundreds more hours to attain - Could be said that this doesn't even need doing just as CON isn't a necessity on hsoma.
Lazarus
Pros- Can actually participate in PVP and RVR
Cons- Takes longer than any other character to get to a point you can even participate in PVP.
Other than doing this patch for the sake of it, was there another thing that it was trying to address?[/quote]
it's more than 8-10 more str than a non punched archer, archers would cap at 195 str without punching, and that's leveling optimally.. and yeah but then we can go round in circles how older chars had to do more and received less, it's just how the game evolves.
You actually make a good point in that mage is pointless atm (unless you want to punch), with the new system it can be made a class worth playing, as punching can be made unnecessary to make it a viable pvp option, i'm pretty sure in time that will attract more people to the class.
You also forget a number of people in the old thread said they were put off playing as they felt they had to punch (be it on an archer or on a mage) to compete at the top level. So if someone wants to play an archer now, they would still need to punch from 88-100 to be comparable with the 'best' in class. Same with a mage as you have clearly pointed out.
Edit: these are just counter points to your points, there are numerous other benefits we keep repeating in regards to the new stat allocation system.
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#61 2017/01/08 16:25:00 |
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S0RCERER |
The fix to mages was to alter stat gain ratios.
Something that was flatly refused for no reason what so ever before it became an issue. |
#62 2017/01/08 16:28:40 |
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KEKKET |
"SLAYER""ISYLVER"There are only 2 mages with over 160 (laz/monster). The next highest is 135. Nobody can tell as punching is faster % then magic from fallen trolls. Now i understand y they punched wbm back then. Now its even harder coz wbm 50% lower % gain so only thing i can do now is grind like mad and hope i will lvl on trolls one day
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[quote="KEKKET"][quote="SLAYER"][quote="ISYLVER"]There are only 2 mages with over 160 (laz/monster). The next highest is 135.[/quote]
Interesting, I guess that's why no one would tell me what a capped non punched mage would have. I had access to monster and he was quite high con wise but also punched for a long time.[/quote]
Nobody can tell as punching is faster % then magic from fallen trolls. Now i understand y they punched wbm back then. Now its even harder coz wbm 50% lower % gain so only thing i can do now is grind like mad and hope i will lvl on trolls one day[/quote]
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#63 2017/01/08 16:33:34 |
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ISYLVER [Staff] |
Just to quickly highlight the disparity in the (37) level 100 builds at the moment. I've converted stats into points to see the disparity in level 100s due to punching etc.
Dsoma I won't reveal names but here are the top 5 level 100s points: 1037 987 986 919 916 And the bottom 5 794 793 792 788 781 And if we did the same exercise for hsoma we'd see something like this (although aware con is harder to get/wis etc). Hsoma 562 561 558 558 556 Bottom 5: 541 541 540 540 538 538
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[quote="ISYLVER"]Just to quickly highlight the disparity in the (37) level 100 builds at the moment. I've converted stats into points to see the disparity in level 100s due to punching etc.
[b]Dsoma[/b]
I won't reveal names but here are the top 5 level 100s points:
1037
987
986
919
916
And the bottom 5
794
793
792
788
781
And if we did the same exercise for hsoma we'd see something like this (although aware con is harder to get/wis etc).
[b]Hsoma[/b]
562
561
558
558
556
Bottom 5:
541
541
540
540
538
538
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#64 2017/01/08 16:44:57 |
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DEIMOS |
Granted I haven't read all of the arguments but I read the blue comments and the issues I see are this:
Most mellee chars will want there mellee stats capped first so I think/wis will come second- surely we could all just put 0 int and let humans have conti permanently and bigger the whole System up. To avoid this you would add int requirements to thing, all this is nerf the str builds - axe/spear most as they NEED more points to cap their main stats, currently bow and nuk will cap all their mellee stats and have a lot more points remaining for int/wis. Which also leads to currently if everyone went 0 wis bow would effectively have more attack than on current stats with the added bonus of decent int damage from profs against all other classes, you have 'evened out' the lower str chars by gifting them a second form of attack rather than relying on Dex which is their main stat The second issue is you say you can tweak the points system but will you not just claim people haven't allocated their points correctly within the limits so then people waste more time doing quests to repoint to prove the same point at which point al the tweaks will do is bring all classes closer to having the same stats
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[quote="DEIMOS"]Granted I haven't read all of the arguments but I read the blue comments and the issues I see are this:
Most mellee chars will want there mellee stats capped first so I think/wis will come second- surely we could all just put 0 int and let humans have conti permanently and bigger the whole
System up. To avoid this you would add int requirements to thing, all this is nerf the str builds - axe/spear most as they NEED more points to cap their main stats, currently bow and nuk will cap all their mellee stats and have a lot more points remaining for int/wis. Which also leads to currently if everyone went 0 wis bow would effectively have more attack than on current stats with the added bonus of decent int damage from profs against all other classes, you have 'evened out' the lower str chars by gifting them a second form of attack rather than relying on Dex which is their main stat
The second issue is you say you can tweak the points system but will you not just claim people haven't allocated their points correctly within the limits so then people waste more time doing quests to repoint to prove the same point at which point al the tweaks will do is bring all classes closer to having the same stats[/quote]
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#65 2017/01/08 16:45:22 |
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SLAYER |
"KEKKET""SLAYER""ISYLVER"There are only 2 mages with over 160 (laz/monster). The next highest is 135. Well technically with the new system they could use another weapon to gain exp? Another benefit...nice And btw wbm have half the HP now? so they die faster and works out the same (you just end up with less swarming you on average so makes them easier)...plus they are twice the exp now as well...
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[quote="SLAYER"][quote="KEKKET"][quote="SLAYER"][quote="ISYLVER"]There are only 2 mages with over 160 (laz/monster). The next highest is 135.[/quote]
Interesting, I guess that's why no one would tell me what a capped non punched mage would have. I had access to monster and he was quite high con wise but also punched for a long time.[/quote]
Nobody can tell as punching is faster % then magic from fallen trolls. Now i understand y they punched wbm back then. Now its even harder coz wbm 50% lower % gain so only thing i can do now is grind like mad and hope i will lvl on trolls one day[/quote]
Well technically with the new system they could use another weapon to gain exp? Another benefit...nice
And btw wbm have half the HP now? so they die faster and works out the same (you just end up with less swarming you on average so makes them easier)...plus they are twice the exp now as well...[/quote]
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#66 2017/01/08 16:46:05 |
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DEIMOS |
Ok so if you were to remove the punched chars and repoint then to the stats average for their non punched class how big is the gap then? (By removing the few anomalies and relying on the majority)
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#67 2017/01/08 16:46:50 |
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ISYLVER [Staff] |
#68 2017/01/08 16:47:22 | |
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SLAYER |
"DEIMOS"Granted I haven't read all of the arguments but I read the blue comments and the issues I see are this: Mate seriously....all you do is lower the INT requirement for an axe user so it all works out fairly...it's really not hard to manipulate things with the new system so your points don't need to be worried about. They already said there will be a test server, so you can practice this and I'm sure they can witness things for themselves and test it for themselves as well...
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[quote="SLAYER"][quote="DEIMOS"]Granted I haven't read all of the arguments but I read the blue comments and the issues I see are this:
Most mellee chars will want there mellee stats capped first so I think/wis will come second- surely we could all just put 0 int and let humans have conti permanently and bigger the whole
System up. To avoid this you would add int requirements to thing, all this is nerf the str builds - axe/spear most as they NEED more points to cap their main stats, currently bow and nuk will cap all their mellee stats and have a lot more points remaining for int/wis. Which also leads to currently if everyone went 0 wis bow would effectively have more attack than on current stats with the added bonus of decent int damage from profs against all other classes, you have 'evened out' the lower str chars by gifting them a second form of attack rather than relying on Dex which is their main stat
The second issue is you say you can tweak the points system but will you not just claim people haven't allocated their points correctly within the limits so then people waste more time doing quests to repoint to prove the same point at which point al the tweaks will do is bring all classes closer to having the same stats[/quote]
Mate seriously....all you do is lower the INT requirement for an axe user so it all works out fairly...it's really not hard to manipulate things with the new system so your points don't need to be worried about.
They already said there will be a test server, so you can practice this and I'm sure they can witness things for themselves and test it for themselves as well...[/quote]
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#69 2017/01/08 16:49:19 |
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DEIMOS |
That's quoted on punched chars, of punched chars are removed from the equation how does it look
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#70 2017/01/08 16:49:25 |
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ISYLVER [Staff] |
"DEIMOS"That's quoted on punched chars, of punched chars are removed from the equation how does it look We can't see for sure who has punched and for how long all we can see is the disparity in total stats. |
#71 2017/01/08 16:51:24 |
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DEIMOS |
That requirement only works for weps not armours shared across the board, will hp be left as is on your current level or reworked as per new int etc
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#72 2017/01/08 16:51:31 |
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ISYLVER [Staff] |
"DEIMOS"That requirement only works for weps not armours shared across the board, will hp be left as is on your current level or reworked as per new int etc It will recalculate based on where you allocate your stats. |
#73 2017/01/08 16:53:25 |
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KEKKET |
Is there a eta on test?
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#74 2017/01/08 16:55:24 |
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FINITO [Staff] |
"S0RCERER"How so? What is wrong with allocating stats post 100? Punching should not be a thing and removing that requires that we change it for the whole level range so it is fair to everyone. Con and Wis being changed back to defense and magic defense requires a stat re-balance and again this has to be done for the whole level range. The reason its being changed back to Con and Wis is so that they have a use and can balance attack and defense separately. It was originally changed to Str and Int because they were deemed to be better balanced between different classes compared to Con and Wis and it was a quick fix. Classes are not balanced and we want to fix that and I don't see any way we can do that with keeping the current system (not without a wipe). Also Dex and Wis being capped at 200 might be an issue as well because some characters might have been able to get over that amount and raising the cap gives unfair advantage to characters still leveling. "S0RCERER"The fix to mages was to alter stat gain ratios. It was refused because that forces everyone to re-level their character because a wipe would be needed for all dsoma mages to keep it fair. I don't remember how far it was into the server when issues were raised but being a while into the server doing such a change is too late and decided it best to save an overhaul until an increase in the level cap. Also our client and server was not as developed back then as it is now and wouldn't have even been possible at the time to implement a different system or change some of the stuff. "DEIMOS"Ok so if you were to remove the punched chars and repoint then to the stats average for their non punched class how big is the gap then? (By removing the few anomalies and relying on the majority) Cannot be done in a way that we see would work and be fair. We don't know who has punched and who has not punched. We don't know how long they punched for and on what mobs and at what stat bonuses.
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[quote="FINITO"][quote="S0RCERER"]How so? What is wrong with allocating stats post 100?[/quote]
Punching should not be a thing and removing that requires that we change it for the whole level range so it is fair to everyone.
Con and Wis being changed back to defense and magic defense requires a stat re-balance and again this has to be done for the whole level range. The reason its being changed back to Con and Wis is so that they have a use and can balance attack and defense separately. It was originally changed to Str and Int because they were deemed to be better balanced between different classes compared to Con and Wis and it was a quick fix.
Classes are not balanced and we want to fix that and I don't see any way we can do that with keeping the current system (not without a wipe).
Also Dex and Wis being capped at 200 might be an issue as well because some characters might have been able to get over that amount and raising the cap gives unfair advantage to characters still leveling.
[quote="S0RCERER"]The fix to mages was to alter stat gain ratios.
Something that was flatly refused for no reason what so ever before it became an issue.[/quote]
It was refused because that forces everyone to re-level their character because a wipe would be needed for all dsoma mages to keep it fair. I don't remember how far it was into the server when issues were raised but being a while into the server doing such a change is too late and decided it best to save an overhaul until an increase in the level cap.
Also our client and server was not as developed back then as it is now and wouldn't have even been possible at the time to implement a different system or change some of the stuff.
[quote="DEIMOS"]Ok so if you were to remove the punched chars and repoint then to the stats average for their non punched class how big is the gap then? (By removing the few anomalies and relying on the majority)[/quote]
Cannot be done in a way that we see would work and be fair. We don't know who has punched and who has not punched. We don't know how long they punched for and on what mobs and at what stat bonuses.[/quote]
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#75 2017/01/08 16:56:54 |
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