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[quote="162"]A lot of suggestions from players about changes to PVP do not take into account the limitations and constraints of the way Soma is coded and built. The ideas suggested here are made specifically so that they are not difficult to implement and will not take up too much time. These changes have the greatest benefit to development time ratio. They’re not perfect, but the health of PVP will increase dramatically. [b]The real issue with Soma PVP is not archers[/b] The issue with PVP and the archer class is not that archers are OP or are in some way overpowered. The issue we have is that archers have the ability to PVP in a way that we should all be able to. Archers can hit people at will from range, but more importantly, they can engage when they want, they can use hit and run tactics and they can make more plays than other weapons can. Archers having a healthy PVP experience is not a problem that needs to be dealt with. The real problem is the weapons that don’t allow us to engage, make plays and have a healthy experience in PVP. Imagine being able to effectively use your Knuckle, Sword, Spear or Axe in a legit PVP fight where you can make plays and use more skill to defeat even archers who are running away. [b]It is impossible to engage someone in melee if they don’t want to. It is completely futile.[/b] The current state of the PVP game dictates that if a melee user tries to engage, then the other player simply walks one single square away and it makes hitting them impossible. You simply cannot, as a law of physics in Soma, attack another player with your melee weapon, unless you are standing directly next to them. If they decide to move, the PVP fight is over and there is nothing you can do unless they want to engage with you. This needs to stop, for melee weapons to be viable, for melee weapons to have a healthy PVP experience, there needs to be changes. Imagine seeing melee users actually engaging in interesting PVP battles and having success. This can happen. [b]Gameplay Adjustment[/b] [b]1) When hit by a melee player, remove the ability to walk when flinched(Root them for half a second)[/b] When a player is hit by an attack there is a flinch animation. During this animation it is possible to continue walking. I believe adding a condition/check that if the attack was made by one of the melee weapons, then disable walking for half a second, it would do the trick. Add a cooldown on the effect, so this can not proc more than once every second. Bows and magic do not cause this type of flinching. Simply adding an extra variable with a timer for every char that resets on being attacked would do the job. [b]What will this change make to PVP?[/b] Soma is lacking the ability to CC others(Crowd Control - Like Axer’s Stone aura). Now, as you charge in to hit another player, if you manage to connect, the player will flinch for a moment, slowing them down and this will give you further openings to land extra attacks. You now have the ability to slow other player's movement in PVP. [b]Active and passive items[/b] [b]2) Feathers now flash to pointer cursor direction(with cooldown and capped range)[/b] Making plays is at the heart of any decent PVP game. If there is going to be a form of CC(flinching), there needs to be a form of escape and in consequence of this change, also a form of engage. When activated, feathers will now teleport you in the direction of your cursor. Allowing you to escape from attacks but also allowing you to make crafty plays and engage with purpose and tactics. This is very similar to how Flash works in League of Legends. You can add a cooldown to the use of the feather, so that using it, is something a player should plan and can not be abused. A minute sounds fair. Also a capped range, if the cursor is further than that distance, they feather to the capped range only(If shorter, go to the cursor). Use the current cliff detection system with attacking, for feathers, if you don’t want people flashing walls. An unlimited use feather with a cooldown timer is the healthiest for PvP (give access to everyone). [b]What will this change make to PVP?[/b] There are a ton of ways a player could use this ability to make PVP interesting. From chasing, to escaping, to surprise engaging, to being clever with terrain. It adds a whole new dynamic to PVP. It makes new stuff possible. [b]3) Buff potions which add flinching proc on hit[/b] By copying and changing the poison proc on hit, to one that does 0 damage, but on the application of the poison’s damage, it instead causes a flinch(like discussed earlier), we now effectively have a slow potion which helps CC players and slow them down. An unlimited use slow potion with a cooldown timer is the healthiest for PvP (give access to everyone). [b]4) Change all melee to range 2(Like spear)[/b] Ask yourself, does looking a bit odd when attacking outweigh the benefits to the health of PVP? Does looking a bit odd when attacking put you off more than trying to chase someone but never being able to engage them? If we are talking purely about fixing the issues with PVP, this change makes a lot of sense. I talked earlier about how one player can move 1 square and completely nullify any potential for an attack by an attacking player, even if the attacker is right next to them trying their hardest to hit them. By making melee weapons range 2, we are now able to hit other players and we are now able to flinch them and keep on hitting. Yes it won't look great at times, but will it create a much more healthy and exciting PVP experience? Absolutely. [/quote]

[quote="WAGAWAGA"]Make archers hit from range 2 and not 5 then everything would be good to[/quote]

[quote="SAL3M"]All of these changes sound like they would take more time than simply adding range to 5th axe & giving other classes something similar. Give 5th axe 5 range, give spear an equivalent aura then give knuckle & sword a crippling attack that locks you in walk but only has range one. Now there is still a group dynamic/utility of class aspect & people can't simply run away. Problem solved. [/quote]

[quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"]All of these changes sound like they would take way more time than simply adding range to 5th axe & giving other classes something similar. Give 5th axe 5 range, give spear an equivalent aura then give knuckle & sword a crippling attack that locks you in walk but only has range one. Problem solved.[/quote] Adding a range 5 aura to Axer's stone will look weird and makes no sense to the overall balance of melee. *something similar* is a heck of a thing and very time consuming. You will also be missing out on the play-making ability of the feather/flash mechanic while still keeping the "walk 1 space away and be invulnerable to melee" whenever your suggested aura is on cooldown. what you suggested doesn't solve the problems with PVP. Lastly, my suggestions don't take up spell slots and give an even playing field/foundation with which GMs can create other interesting mechanics and abilities in the future, without being locked down to balancing the auras you suggested. [/quote]

[quote="SAL3M"][quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"]All of these changes sound like they would take way more time than simply adding range to 5th axe & giving other classes something similar. Give 5th axe 5 range, give spear an equivalent aura then give knuckle & sword a crippling attack that locks you in walk but only has range one. Problem solved.[/quote] Adding a range 5 aura to Axer's stone will look weird and makes no sense to the overall balance of melee. *something similar* is a heck of a thing and very time consuming. You will also be missing out on the play-making ability of the feather/flash mechanic while still keeping the "walk 1 space away and be invulnerable to melee" whenever your suggested aura is on cooldown. what you suggested doesn't solve the problems with PVP. Lastly, my suggestions don't take up spell slots and give an even playing field/foundation with which GMs can create other interesting mechanics and abilities in the future, without being locked down to balancing the auras you suggested. [/quote] It wouldn't look weird if you just gave it an existing spell skin like that ranged earth attack w/e it is called from hsoma & by something similar I meant basically give them 3rd axe with range and some spell skin which I don't think, although i'm no expert, would take that long. Having ranged stun attacks absolutely would solve the problem you're describing & better than the cripple idea imo. Absolutely agree about the feathers though, sounds a good idea. Obviously I also agree with the problem you're describing generally & agree it should be addressed even if we have differing views on the solution.[/quote]

[quote="LUPISCUS"]Give every weapon class a ''stun'' attack( aura) , working similar to 5th axe..... and think of a new 5th axe attack[/quote]

[quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"] ***[/quote] Just giving everyone a range 5 stone is not a solution. Also, what about when it is on cooldown? No, we need something better. What you suggested requires no skill on the player's part. [/quote]

[quote="SAL3M"][quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"][quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"]All of these changes sound like they would take way more time than simply adding range to 5th axe & giving other classes something similar. Give 5th axe 5 range, give spear an equivalent aura then give knuckle & sword a crippling attack that locks you in walk but only has range one. Problem solved.[/quote] Adding a range 5 aura to Axer's stone will look weird and makes no sense to the overall balance of melee. *something similar* is a heck of a thing and very time consuming. You will also be missing out on the play-making ability of the feather/flash mechanic while still keeping the "walk 1 space away and be invulnerable to melee" whenever your suggested aura is on cooldown. what you suggested doesn't solve the problems with PVP. Lastly, my suggestions don't take up spell slots and give an even playing field/foundation with which GMs can create other interesting mechanics and abilities in the future, without being locked down to balancing the auras you suggested. [/quote] It wouldn't look weird if you just gave it an existing spell skin like that ranged earth attack w/e it is called from hsoma & by something similar I meant basically give them 3rd axe with range and some spell skin which I don't think, although i'm no expert, would take that long. Having ranged stun attacks absolutely would solve the problem you're describing & better than the cripple idea imo. Absolutely agree about the feathers though, sounds a good idea. Obviously I also agree with the problem you're describing generally & agree it should be addressed even if we have differing views on the solution.[/quote] Just giving everyone a range 5 stone is not a solution. [/quote] It also isn't what I suggested... I said give 2 classes range 5 stone and then two classes an attack that locks walk for a time so it is harder to run. That will obviously help to add an element of CC to pvp and stop people running off. If they implemented a stun on hit like you say most likely what would happen imo is people would just run off more often before people ran up to them in the first place. [quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"] ***[/quote] Just giving everyone a range 5 stone is not a solution. Also, what about when it is on cooldown? No, we need something better. What you suggested requires no skill on the player's part. [/quote] I think at some point that you're going to have to face the reality that there is only so much 'skill' that can be inserted into an old game like Soma tbh & i'm not sure how stunning with a ranged aura is much less skillful than just clicking on them @ range 1 or 2 for a shorter duration stun? As for cool down one of the only skillful aspects to pvp is resource management and timing so I don't buy that either.[/quote]

[quote="JACKELPUP"]Every weapon has its own characteristics. Simply nerfing something because it isn’t in your own (I don’t mean the OP, I mean anyone) interests isn’t an answer. Didn’t all weapons (except bows) get extra attack recently? If you think the bow is awesome, why not use one? There was/is an argument that Devils are way over-powered – same thing; I always wondered why people who complained about that didn’t just go and make a devil? PvP doesn’t seem to be much about “1 Vs. 1” – there is far more of the “group” attacks. A group of attackers who can stone, weak, fire arrows with zombie blah blah blah with synchronicity are always going to stand a significant advantage over a single player. The “skill” (as it is often t referred to) is to calculate how to down an enemy given your strengths and weaknesses. Included in your strengths are those of your friends and Guild members who are like minded. You also have to take account of your opponents strengthens and learn their weaknesses. Who ever said warfare was fair? 8) Jac [/quote]

[quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"] It also isn't what I suggested... I said give 2 classes range 5 stone and then two classes an attack that locks walk for a time so it is harder to run. *** I think at some point that you're going to have to face the reality that there is only so much 'skill' that can be inserted into an old game like Soma tbh & i'm not sure how stunning with a ranged aura is much less skillful than just clicking on them @ range 1 or 2 for a shorter duration stun? As for cool down one of the only skillful aspects to pvp is resource management and timing so I don't buy that either.[/quote] You're not taking into account how your aura idea will play out in a live server. A range 5 stone would be disastrous to PVP. People will stone from afar constantly, everyone will be blinking and stuck, no one will even be able to get close to another person. One person will stone, survive, the other person will stone and run. The game will be a completely jagged experience as no one is able to move and get close because people constantly stone each other. Players will cease to be able to get hits in or juking and finding ways to get in close and instead be a game of "who gets stone first". It isn't a solution that adds anything to the game and it solves nothing as PVP will break it completely. The stone aura for every class/similar aura will take up an extra spellslot, it will push out another aura as you are only allowed two auras at a time, creating less diversity in the game. The walk lock... just why does that have to be an aura exactly? Why not just make a fair flinching mechanic for melee? Also, being locked into walk is unfun, the flinching mechanic doesn't stop a char from running, it makes them flinch and they carry on, still allowing for some juking and still allowing someone to play with the range they keep enemies at, instead of an aura that stones from range 5 and adds nothing to the game. [/quote]

[quote="162"][quote="JACKELPUP"] *** [/quote] I'm really not sure what you're saying here. Do you have any feedback? [/quote]

[quote="SAL3M"][quote="162"]You're not taking into account how your aura idea will play out in a live server. A range 5 stone would be disastrous to PVP. People will stone from afar constantly, everyone will be blinking and stuck, no one will even be able to get close to another person. One person will stone, survive, the other person will stone and run. The game will be a completely jagged experience as no one is able to move and get close because people constantly stone each other. Players will cease to be able getting hits in or juking and finding ways to get in close and instead be a game of "who gets stone first". It isn't a solution that adds anything to the game and it solves nothing as PVP will break it completely. The stone aura for every class will take up an extra spellslot, it will push out another aura as you are only allowed two auras at a time, creating less diversity in the game. The walk lock... just why does that have to be an aura exactly? Why not just make a fair flinching mechanic for melee? Also, being locked into walk is unfun, the flinching mechanic doesn't stop a char from running, it makes them flinch and they carry on, still allowing for some juking and still allowing someone to play with the range they keep enemies at, instead of an aura that stones from range 5 and adds nothing to the game. [/quote] I don't agree at all tbh, i'm not sure if you're just talking purely about 1v1 pvp & we're at cross purposes? But looking at group pvp I don't see how you've come to that conclusion at all - under my vision of things two classes have ranged stone that has a cool-down and can't be incessantly spammed i.e. you have to make judicious use of it ,which is the skill as I see it. Two more classes still have range (mage & archer) and don't have stuns at all and can still hit from afar, two other classes have a similar version of your stun only it is now on a timer to be used once in a while rather than auto on hit.[/quote]

[quote="162"][quote="SAL3M"] *** I don't agree at all tbh, i'm not sure if you're just talking purely about 1v1 pvp & we're at cross purposes? But looking at group pvp I don't see how you've come to that conclusion at all - under my vision of things two classes have ranged stone that has a cool-down and can't be incessantly spammed i.e. you have to make judicious use of it ,which is the skill as I see it. Two more classes still have range (mage & archer) and don't have stuns at all and can still hit from afar, two other classes have a similar version of your stun only it is now on a timer to be used once in a while rather than auto on hit.[/quote] I'm talking about PVP in all forms on Soma. Hard CC, like stone is something that in game design they are very scared to use because it has the potential to ruin the experience and the balance completely. Usually with hard CC there are large cooldowns, there is a risk to use it and in order to be effective with it, the player needs to put themself at risk or make considerable efforts to hit with it. A range 5 stone has no risk, the cooldown, if it is long, makes it useless for 99% of the time, if someone lands a stone they are practically dead, unless the other group simply stone those guys, which creates a mess of people using stone and being forced to walk around because of the walk lock. Where is the risk/reward? Avoiding the opposing player's stone? Is that the type of game you really want? Then when everything is on cooldown, what do you do? Wait until stone is back up? You can't chase anyone because they just move 1 square away and become impossible to hit still. This is just an awful idea for PVP balance and it takes the excitement out of it. It doesn't solve the issues that my suggestion solves, it is a duct tape job and it will make PVP an awful experience. I think my idea of providing a mechanic for all melee classes is less work for Finito, it will also free up an aura/spellslot for future abilities and you would be able to engage and escape at your own discretion, making your own plays in group fights and 1v1 without waiting for the cooldown timer on a hard CC ability. In PVP, people want to be chasing, escaping, fight toe to toe, juking and have fun. They don't want to constantly find themselves completely unable to move. [/quote]

[quote="PIKUTIN"]Im all in for anything which brings more knucklers/swords/spears into pvp Maybe just bring in new tier of weps where these three in particular are buffed?[/quote]

[quote="RIN"]Delete bows[/quote]