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"LAZARUS"Why not make it so that whichever is higher outta str or con is what def is based on, if that's possible. Then everyone's happy.

This sounds good to me. Nobody gets nerved, and buffs are applied where needed (axe in particular).

"ISYLVER"Although taking con/str and taking the highest sounds a good solution now. It's certainly not a good one in the long run.

Is it an idea you'd be open to testing though? if it's even possible of course.

If the whole point as mentioned in the initial post is to try to normalise archers because they are "overpowered" surely making defense the higher of your two stats makes no difference to archers at all and only makes other melle classes have more defense...

From what little i see of devil gvw everyone seems to moan that people last too long (archers in particular) due to high defense/dex and the change initially proposed would be better than the alternate one suggested later on in the thread.

"FUJITORA"If the whole point as mentioned in the initial post is to try to normalise archers because they are "overpowered" surely making defense the higher of your two stats makes no difference to archers at all and only makes other melle classes have more defense...

They still have best dex and dex is the best defensive stat there is.

I've always seen the problem with archers being their higher dex than anything else. I'd say cap dex at 150 but it's far too late for that. Their defense isn't really that bad imo, it's just that every other class suffers hugely from a major difference between str/dex and as levels go up the difference increases further. Once defences go up for all classes with this change, we may see an evening out in the battlefield.

The situation isn't really helped though by archers being the only classes that're 90+, so would need to wait and see till there's a variety in higher levels for what happens. If necessary, accuracy could be added based on classes via quests if it's still an issue in the future.

But as a last resort if archers at GVW are so much of a problem, maybe try putting an evasion debuff zone on the stone that reduces eva every 3 mins for 5%.

My point was that making the higher of the two stats your def would mean no change at all for archers at all, they will still be as equally difficult to kill as before the change lol...

"FUJITORA"My point was that making the higher of the two stats your def would mean no change at all for archers at all, they will still be as equally difficult to kill as before the change lol...

Even if they have a slight con decrease, do you really think a character with 200 dex, dex accessories and a dodge aura is any easier to kill? as an example.

I'm not saying nerf thier dex it's their main stat after all but what I'm saying is their dex is of far more value as a defensive stat than a few con.

Yes, even if it means they lose 10 defense, regardless of if they have 500 dex, they will still become easier to kill.

"FUJITORA"Yes, even if it means they lose 10 defense, regardless of if they have 500 dex, they will still become easier to kill.

How do you kill something you barely hit, I'm mind blown because you still have to be able to hit to take advantage of con loss.

On the other hand, lets say we go with the change suggested by Lazarus, archers remain exactly the same and everyone else gains 10/20/whatever defense

Thats not going to decrease the survivability of an archer is it.

I really like the idea of making str count for devils defence, I hope that gets implemented.I've always thought it was ridiculous that the class with the most dex is also the class that takes the least damage! Axe and spear should definitely be able to absorb more punishment.

I still think because of the nature of Dex beyond level 80 for archer and knux there should be a level 80 requirement +8% accuracy ear ring for spear and axe, 5% accuracy for sword. That or cap Dex earlier like mentioned before.

I think quite a few people, now that rested is involved, want to have a dsoma alt and it just doesn't make sense to not go archer.. I like the idea of the change so that axe/spear can absorb more damage, especially axe but also agree there needs to be some class specific things put in place, perhaps a small quest for an upgrade on your axe or something for accuracy or a dex+? Not sure which is essentially best.

My two pence: I think the main one to fix is the int/wis issue, so its good everyone is on board for that, but to be honest I'm not a huge fan of the str/con idea.

My opinion is a bit biased on this, because I have spent a lot of time punching purely in consideration of my con falling behind my str too much way further down the line. I would have spent a lot less time punching if str was def, but the punching has obviously been useful as far as md gains, so it wouldn't make it a complete waste of my time.

My main concern is that by attempting to buff some classes to make archers a more balanced class might just put another class in that position, for example, giving knuckle more def might make them pretty much un-killable at 100 instead of bow, which I already struggle with due to dex.

I'm sure you will consider all the angles so I'm not overly worried something will get implemented that will screw things up completely, but I'm just not convinced changing how con works will produce the results intended.