| Author | Content | Date |
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CARNAGE |
"WOLF8""CARNAGE"As an ex pvp/pk player, need to Iet go of the idea this is a pvp game because it's really not. Not anymore, just about mindlessly clicking mobs few hours a week. Proof? Thought not. Actually played more recently than 3 years fact is though no one has a clue how to get older players back here. I don't exactly see any stampedes. Difference between being toxic and saying things others won't say.
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[quote="CARNAGE"][quote="WOLF8"][quote="CARNAGE"]As an ex pvp/pk player, need to Iet go of the idea this is a pvp game because it's really not. Not anymore, just about mindlessly clicking mobs few hours a week. [/quote]
think u mean..as a ''i bought a character and killed lower levs in big parties with my guild'' then ye... u were a pk/pvp player.... now ur not..; bye[/quote]
Proof? Thought not. Actually played more recently than 3 years fact is though no one has a clue how to get older players back here. I don't exactly see any stampedes. Difference between being toxic and saying things others won't say. [/quote]
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#91 2019/10/26 15:45:48 |
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SLAYER |
"OCD""SUBXERO"I really dont see the issue with 1 hour immune, if anyone is setting a timer to pk a person is another 30 mins time its a bit sad. I don't agree nor disagree with the increase in immunity time, it may work for some, it may make things worse... But the problem with what you are saying is that if people are just taking deaths so that they get peace to hunt, then it makes the PK ratio totally pointless on both sides, people will and do just go round farming kills for their ratio and to get the kill on the feed. The people doing the PKing (if the person is just taking the kill) you could argue are abusing the system in a sense. I don't think PK ratio should be removed necessarily, but the GMs should consider something like, if someone is in a certain mode, they can be PK'd but it doesn't affect either persons PK ratio and doesn't show on the feed... IMO that is what causes toxicity...that is the key. Some people take pride in PK ratio/deaths on feed, others don't give a fuck...either way if you could enter say /disablepkratiofeed but allow pking, you will remove the egotistical and sadistic nature which some players have. You could then possibly reduce the immunity time, maybe completely. However I feel some will just pk as much as possible to try and stop people hunting, so immunity may still be required. The command would have to have a time delay to stop people just going and getting a gang of people to help fight back, and then reversing the command. Once it's on you can't reverse it for x amont of time. It all sounds a bit carebare I know, but having seen the vicious cycles in-game over the years I think something like the above could work well.
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[quote="SLAYER"][quote="OCD"][quote="SUBXERO"]I really dont see the issue with 1 hour immune, if anyone is setting a timer to pk a person is another 30 mins time its a bit sad.
a normal "pk run" takes maybe 10-15 mins and doing it once an hour is even overkill for me.
I think if anything, speed up the rates to get all these people capped, make end game more pvp based like most other games and have more fun then.
And this dsnt stop any traditional pk i.e pk wars[/quote]
Why would 30mins matter though? make res scrolls free if we have two. People can just take there two deaths and carry on hunting.... I cant even see the issue.
If people are too proud to take a couple of deaths then that's on them, I would gladly rather run/warp then give my enemies the satisfaction of a kill but thats my choice. I dont cry about it.[/quote]
I don't agree nor disagree with the increase in immunity time, it may work for some, it may make things worse...
But the problem with what you are saying is that if people are just taking deaths so that they get peace to hunt, then it makes the PK ratio totally pointless on both sides, people will and do just go round farming kills for their ratio and to get the kill on the feed. The people doing the PKing (if the person is just taking the kill) you could argue are abusing the system in a sense.
I don't think PK ratio should be removed necessarily, but the GMs should consider something like, if someone is in a certain mode, they can be PK'd but it doesn't affect either persons PK ratio and doesn't show on the feed... IMO that is what causes toxicity...that is the key.
Some people take pride in PK ratio/deaths on feed, others don't give a fuck...either way if you could enter say /disablepkratiofeed but allow pking, you will remove the egotistical and sadistic nature which some players have.
You could then possibly reduce the immunity time, maybe completely. However I feel some will just pk as much as possible to try and stop people hunting, so immunity may still be required.
The command would have to have a time delay to stop people just going and getting a gang of people to help fight back, and then reversing the command. Once it's on you can't reverse it for x amont of time.
It all sounds a bit carebare I know, but having seen the vicious cycles in-game over the years I think something like the above could work well.
[/quote]
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#92 2019/10/27 02:31:48 |
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FOXOSAURUS |
Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK".
The game's original system (Esoma) was that 'chaotic' players were punished with only little rewards. That is, banished to the Graveyard and Leo Circle. Any game designer and community power would know that, that alone wouldn't self manage sufficiently because ultimately someone wold want to be that 'chaotic player' either because they made a new one or something else (roleplay). So ok, no one is really against people playing that style but in regular doses it does start to do harm to a 'community' based game that most online RPGs at the time wanted to aim for and create. Community is what creates belonging and ultimately leads to people staying and doesn't just rely on repetition that Soma chains you too. The moral system is that regulation for PK and is what kept people in tow because moral was a lot lot harder to get. Holy Waters were far far far from common. That and no one was capped but most importantly throwaway characters and accounts didn't really exist also. So what did people play for back then, well obviously community, it being a online RPG(which this server has in pockets in comparison) but they really went head over heels for guild wars as well as guild village wars and latterly War of the Worlds/RvR. GM's and the VT group should consider ways of pushing what is the "hungry" PVPers to actual competitions (and having someone run them/create them) so that the toxicity from it thins out and just becomes healthy & competitive. Maybe a 4th game mode of "Competitive" and as long as you remain in it, your rewarded. (PK staying as it is) to herd people that way. The moral system should be completely rehashed to be slow. So e.g people can still drop someone if they really want too but "it has to be worth it". They'll always be a % of the population now, previous and in the future choose to be "PVE/Creative" and can be easily driven from the game. Maybe even remove Holy Waters from the game or limit them a hell of a lot. Then wider balance issues come into play longer term to make PK less one sided. Dsoma can have some of that apply but that needs 'everything' looked at.
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[quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK".
The game's original system (Esoma) was that 'chaotic' players were punished with only little rewards. That is, banished to the Graveyard and Leo Circle. Any game designer and community power would know that, that alone wouldn't self manage sufficiently because ultimately someone wold want to be that 'chaotic player' either because they made a new one or something else (roleplay). So ok, no one is really against people playing that style but in regular doses it does start to do harm to a 'community' based game that most online RPGs at the time wanted to aim for and create. Community is what creates belonging and ultimately leads to people staying and doesn't just rely on repetition that Soma chains you too.
[b]The moral system is that regulation[/b] for PK and is what kept people in tow because moral was a lot lot harder to get. Holy Waters were far far far from common. That and no one was capped but most importantly throwaway characters and accounts didn't really exist also.
So what did people play for back then, well obviously community, it being a online RPG(which this server has in pockets in comparison) but they really went head over heels for guild wars as well as guild village wars and latterly War of the Worlds/RvR.
GM's and the VT group should consider ways of pushing what is the "hungry" PVPers to actual competitions (and having someone run them/create them) so that the toxicity from it thins out and just becomes healthy & competitive. Maybe a 4th game mode of "Competitive" and as long as you remain in it, your rewarded. (PK staying as it is) to herd people that way.
The moral system should be completely rehashed to be slow. So e.g people can still drop someone if they really want too but "it has to be worth it". They'll always be a % of the population now, previous and in the future choose to be "PVE/Creative" and can be easily driven from the game. Maybe even remove Holy Waters from the game or limit them a hell of a lot. Then wider balance issues come into play longer term to make PK less one sided.
Dsoma can have some of that apply but that needs 'everything' looked at.
[/quote]
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#93 2019/10/27 08:55:04 |
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OCD |
"FOXOSAURUS"Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK". I have been saying this since day 1...... The changes that have been made to this server have had the effect of throwing petrol on a fire. All the out of town NPCs need removing. Go back to just graveyard. Moral on this server is meaningless. On Esoma you used to think twice before losing it on some scrub
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[quote="OCD"][quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK".
The game's original system (Esoma) was that 'chaotic' players were punished with only little rewards. That is, banished to the Graveyard and Leo Circle. Any game designer and community power would know that, that alone wouldn't self manage sufficiently because ultimately someone wold want to be that 'chaotic player' either because they made a new one or something else (roleplay). So ok, no one is really against people playing that style but in regular doses it does start to do harm to a 'community' based game that most online RPGs at the time wanted to aim for and create. Community is what creates belonging and ultimately leads to people staying and doesn't just rely on repetition that Soma chains you too.
[b]The moral system is that regulation[/b] for PK and is what kept people in tow because moral was a lot lot harder to get. Holy Waters were far far far from common. That and no one was capped but most importantly throwaway characters and accounts didn't really exist also.
So what did people play for back then, well obviously community, it being a online RPG(which this server has in pockets in comparison) but they really went head over heels for guild wars as well as guild village wars and latterly War of the Worlds/RvR.
GM's and the VT group should consider ways of pushing what is the "hungry" PVPers to actual competitions (and having someone run them/create them) so that the toxicity from it thins out and just becomes healthy & competitive. Maybe a 4th game mode of "Competitive" and as long as you remain in it, your rewarded. (PK staying as it is) to herd people that way.
The moral system should be completely rehashed to be slow. So e.g people can still drop someone if they really want too but "it has to be worth it". They'll always be a % of the population now, previous and in the future choose to be "PVE/Creative" and can be easily driven from the game. As well as maybe looking at making DEX a less effective stat so that 'more characters' and more 'builds' are viable. Some of the burst damage possible is just insane also and should be made more realistic or contained. Obviously I'm only talking about Hsoma.
Dsoma can have some of that apply but that needs 'everything' looked at.
[/quote]
I have been saying this since day 1......
The changes that have been made to this server have had the effect of throwing petrol on a fire. All the out of town NPCs need removing. Go back to just graveyard.
Moral on this server is meaningless. On Esoma you used to think twice before losing it on some scrub[/quote]
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#94 2019/10/27 09:47:37 |
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FOXOSAURUS |
"OCD""FOXOSAURUS"Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK". You're right about that and it would start to help by removing those NPCS and holy water. It wouldn't stop pure PK chars being around though, makes me wonder if you need a 'black' moral banding that people can 'slip' into where it just disables PK completely - preventing a player being excessive in a short amount of time, so punishable that any death even with a res scroll renders them 100% to drop items.. That'd help it be self regulating even further.
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[quote="FOXOSAURUS"][quote="OCD"][quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK".
The game's original system (Esoma) was that 'chaotic' players were punished with only little rewards. That is, banished to the Graveyard and Leo Circle. Any game designer and community power would know that, that alone wouldn't self manage sufficiently because ultimately someone wold want to be that 'chaotic player' either because they made a new one or something else (roleplay). So ok, no one is really against people playing that style but in regular doses it does start to do harm to a 'community' based game that most online RPGs at the time wanted to aim for and create. Community is what creates belonging and ultimately leads to people staying and doesn't just rely on repetition that Soma chains you too.
[b]The moral system is that regulation[/b] for PK and is what kept people in tow because moral was a lot lot harder to get. Holy Waters were far far far from common. That and no one was capped but most importantly throwaway characters and accounts didn't really exist also.
So what did people play for back then, well obviously community, it being a online RPG(which this server has in pockets in comparison) but they really went head over heels for guild wars as well as guild village wars and latterly War of the Worlds/RvR.
GM's and the VT group should consider ways of pushing what is the "hungry" PVPers to actual competitions (and having someone run them/create them) so that the toxicity from it thins out and just becomes healthy & competitive. Maybe a 4th game mode of "Competitive" and as long as you remain in it, your rewarded. (PK staying as it is) to herd people that way.
The moral system should be completely rehashed to be slow. So e.g people can still drop someone if they really want too but "it has to be worth it". They'll always be a % of the population now, previous and in the future choose to be "PVE/Creative" and can be easily driven from the game. As well as maybe looking at making DEX a less effective stat so that 'more characters' and more 'builds' are viable. Some of the burst damage possible is just insane also and should be made more realistic or contained. Obviously I'm only talking about Hsoma.
Dsoma can have some of that apply but that needs 'everything' looked at.
[/quote]
I have been saying this since day 1......
The changes that have been made to this server have had the effect of throwing petrol on a fire. All the out of town NPCs need removing. Go back to just graveyard.
Moral on this server is meaningless. On Esoma you used to think twice before losing it on some scrub[/quote]
You're right about that and it would start to help by removing those NPCS and holy water. It wouldn't stop pure PK chars being around though, makes me wonder if you need a 'black' moral banding that people can 'slip' into where it just disables PK completely - preventing a player being excessive in a short amount of time, so punishable that any death even with a res scroll renders them 100% to drop items.. That'd help it be self regulating even further.
[/quote]
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#95 2019/10/27 11:13:41 |
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SYD |
"FOXOSAURUS"Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK". I was with you until "make dex less effective" lol.. what about one bang mages? don't start sounding like matty plz lol With regards to immunity stuff and making it harder for pkers.. why not if you are devil moral then you can trace players, so that players can hunt on different locations and not being targeted. Or even if a player dies x2 on a soma day then they are immune from getting traced for the remainder of that soma day.
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[quote="SYD"][quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Just going to say I'd be open to having immunity remove under certain conditions but wanted to give a back story for how the game worked in Esoma. We're going back to early 2000 not long after the legendary Ultima Online game came about - and there really wasn't much else to compare with at that point in online RPGs. And Soma kinda took UOs lead in respect of "PK".
The game's original system (Esoma) was that 'chaotic' players were punished with only little rewards. That is, banished to the Graveyard and Leo Circle. Any game designer and community power would know that, that alone wouldn't self manage sufficiently because ultimately someone wold want to be that 'chaotic player' either because they made a new one or something else (roleplay). So ok, no one is really against people playing that style but in regular doses it does start to do harm to a 'community' based game that most online RPGs at the time wanted to aim for and create. Community is what creates belonging and ultimately leads to people staying and doesn't just rely on repetition that Soma chains you too.
[b]The moral system is that regulation[/b] for PK and is what kept people in tow because moral was a lot lot harder to get. Holy Waters were far far far from common. That and no one was capped but most importantly throwaway characters and accounts didn't really exist also.
So what did people play for back then, well obviously community, it being a online RPG(which this server has in pockets in comparison) but they really went head over heels for guild wars as well as guild village wars and latterly War of the Worlds/RvR.
GM's and the VT group should consider ways of pushing what is the "hungry" PVPers to actual competitions (and having someone run them/create them) so that the toxicity from it thins out and just becomes healthy & competitive. Maybe a 4th game mode of "Competitive" and as long as you remain in it, your rewarded. (PK staying as it is) to herd people that way.
The moral system should be completely rehashed to be slow. So e.g people can still drop someone if they really want too but "it has to be worth it". They'll always be a % of the population now, previous and in the future choose to be "PVE/Creative" and can be easily driven from the game. Maybe even remove Holy Waters from the game or limit them a hell of a lot. As well as maybe looking at making DEX a less effective stat so that 'more characters' and more 'builds' are viable. Some of the burst damage possible is just insane also and should be made more realistic or contained. Obviously I'm only talking about Hsoma.
Dsoma can have some of that apply but that needs 'everything' looked at.
[/quote]
I was with you until "make dex less effective" lol.. what about one bang mages? don't start sounding like matty plz lol
With regards to immunity stuff and making it harder for pkers.. why not if you are devil moral then you can trace players, so that players can hunt on different locations and not being targeted. Or even if a player dies x2 on a soma day then they are immune from getting traced for the remainder of that soma day.[/quote]
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#96 2019/10/27 12:21:13 |
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FOXOSAURUS |
Hey Syd,
So I'm not a part of the VT group, just so people know. I'm just a player putting my opinion over to try and get a consensus / perspective understood. Forget I mentioned DEX really, its a gameplay/balance thing not just PVP. Mages of course need their own level of reigning in - I'll edit my post to not mention it. You dilute dex, you dont need to make mages a glass cannon anymore. Anyway, community is where my heart lies and rejigging the moral system would be a step in the right direction (probably needs to be part of several steps) along with maybe seasonable PVP leagues shown in the website (Like GVW wins) for 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 and Guild vs Guild to funnel PK into a healthier direction. Saving Fin and iSylver getting involved in that, maybe just get someone interested in doing a mini site to do that very thing and let someone admin it. Re:- Your idea, do you mean Devil players lose the ability to trace? Could be a option though hunting grounds become predictable at a certain point - checking if a player is online via pm and /pos also kinda limit the impact of that. T
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[quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Hey Syd,
So I'm not a part of the VT group, just so people know. I'm just a player putting my opinion over to try and get a consensus / perspective understood.
Forget I mentioned DEX really, its a gameplay/balance thing not just PVP. Mages of course need their own level of reigning in - I'll edit my post to not mention it. You dilute dex, you dont need to make mages a glass cannon anymore.
Anyway, community is where my heart lies and rejigging the moral system would be a step in the right direction (probably needs to be part of several steps) along with maybe seasonable PVP leagues shown in the website (Like GVW wins) for 1v1, 3v3, 5v5 and Guild vs Guild to funnel PK into a healthier direction. Saving Fin and iSylver getting involved in that, maybe just get someone interested in doing a mini site to do that very thing and let someone admin it.
Re:- Your idea, do you mean Devil players lose the ability to trace? Could be a option though hunting grounds become predictable at a certain point - checking if a player is online via pm and /pos also kinda limit the impact of that. T[/quote]
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#97 2019/10/27 12:31:07 |
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ZYZZ |
Remove gypsy village and bring back the grave yard days with just the warehouse and the guild master.
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#98 2019/10/27 13:22:23 |
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KAZOKU |
To many throw away chars to reign in pking
Removing the npc would just be a little inconvenience They will just sit on devil moral and log onto other chars for everything else Need to give the pkers somthing else to do |
#99 2019/10/27 14:01:45 |
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SHAKBOWKNUK |
Remove the moral cap on -74 or whatever it is... Every kill you make you have to make the moral back (Rather than now where you can make 500 pks and then use a few holy waters to get moral back)
Holy water should only work up to level 110... If you pk you should need to work hard for your moral back (As was the case in esoma)
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[quote="SHAKBOWKNUK"]Remove the moral cap on -74 or whatever it is... Every kill you make you have to make the moral back (Rather than now where you can make 500 pks and then use a few holy waters to get moral back)
Holy water should only work up to level 110... If you pk you should need to work hard for your moral back (As was the case in esoma)[/quote]
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#100 2019/10/27 16:02:42 |
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CARNAGE |
Question, what is the incentive to pk these days?
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#101 2019/10/27 17:20:23 |
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KAZOKU |
"CARNAGE"Question, what is the incentive to pk these days? You tell me Ppl still go though the map and pk every person they see multiple times, what are they getting out of just killing ppl ? I fully understand pk battles, as when there close to even they are fun
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[quote="KAZOKU"][quote="CARNAGE"]Question, what is the incentive to pk these days? [/quote]
You tell me
Ppl still go though the map and pk every person they see multiple times, what are they getting out of just killing ppl ?
I fully understand pk battles, as when there close to even they are fun [/quote]
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#102 2019/10/27 17:24:16 |
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CARNAGE |
"KAZOKU""CARNAGE"Question, what is the incentive to pk these days? Could have their own reasons but I'm not really interested in individuals even if they are being dicks they don't have to answer to anyone. For example if the negative moral was made infinite, what reason does someone have to go put themselves into -500 moral when stat loss is no longer a thing and death drops only happen if someone is thick enough to walk about with maximum penalty exp lol.
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[quote="CARNAGE"][quote="KAZOKU"][quote="CARNAGE"]Question, what is the incentive to pk these days? [/quote]
You tell me
Ppl still go though the map and pk every person they see multiple times, what are they getting out of just killing ppl ?
I fully understand pk battles, as when there close to even they are fun [/quote]
Could have their own reasons but I'm not really interested in individuals even if they are being dicks they don't have to answer to anyone.
For example if the negative moral was made infinite, what reason does someone have to go put themselves into -500 moral when stat loss is no longer a thing and death drops only happen if someone is thick enough to walk about with maximum penalty exp lol.
[/quote]
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#103 2019/10/27 17:33:58 |
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SLAYER |
Some good points made on this page. I was about back when Esoma started and there were many more aspects of the game which kept pking in check (most listed on here)...we all want PK to stay, but we need to think of new ways to stop the toxic aspect of it that has now been allowed to grow, largely in part due to all the differences between this one and Esoma. This server is better in all ways but this one IMO (and population of course)
If we could implement even just a few of the ideas on this page of this thread, I think it would help. Back on Esoma Dsoma, most people who PK on this server, wouldn't dare do it back there like they do here, or put simply, they wouldn't of been able to...you had no where to repair other than GV, no NPC to buy pots...other than GV....one warehouse in a remote location (Other than GV one)...requiring you to run multiple maps just to get to it. Moral took ages to gain as already said, we also had NO resi's up until shortly after wotw patch. Stat loss and item dropping was a very real and common occurance (yeah we all know about exp loss to gain more stats now, but didn't at the time). Weapons were shitter, slower, everyone was still leveling and to lose a few % to death was hours of work etc etc. It's clear we need new more methodical and well thought out methods of addressing this issue.
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[quote="SLAYER"]Some good points made on this page. I was about back when Esoma started and there were many more aspects of the game which kept pking in check (most listed on here)...we all want PK to stay, but we need to think of new ways to stop the toxic aspect of it that has now been allowed to grow, largely in part due to all the differences between this one and Esoma. This server is better in all ways but this one IMO (and population of course)
If we could implement even just a few of the ideas on this page of this thread, I think it would help.
Back on Esoma Dsoma, most people who PK on this server, wouldn't dare do it back there like they do here, or
put simply, they wouldn't of been able to...you had no where to repair other than GV, no NPC to buy pots...other than GV....one warehouse in a remote location (Other than GV one)...requiring you to run multiple maps just to get to it.
Moral took ages to gain as already said, we also had NO resi's up until shortly after wotw patch. Stat loss and item dropping was a very real and common occurance (yeah we all know about exp loss to gain more stats now, but didn't at the time).
Weapons were shitter, slower, everyone was still leveling and to lose a few % to death was hours of work etc etc.
It's clear we need new more methodical and well thought out methods of addressing this issue.[/quote]
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#104 2019/10/27 19:32:57 |
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WOLF10 |
As there isn't massive amounts of pk going on.. maybe working on the anvil would be more of a priority.. Many players finding it difficult to make/come by half decent gear. More ppl geared with decent stuff might equal more pk fights..then work out what may need fixing..if it does
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[quote="WOLF10"]As there isn't massive amounts of pk going on.. maybe working on the anvil would be more of a priority.. Many players finding it difficult to make/come by half decent gear. More ppl geared with decent stuff might equal more pk fights..then work out what may need fixing..if it does[/quote]
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#105 2019/10/27 21:23:46 |
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