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TRICEPTIMOUS |
Not sure if it is the way, i believe on esoma all weaps ave the same dex after 100. So people lvled str weapons.
If the dex / str gains were still distributed after 100, as they are normally, then there would be no problem? |
#31 2013/12/20 10:44:33 |
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GHOSTLORD |
"TRICEPTIMOUS"Not sure if it is the way, i believe on esoma all weaps ave the same dex after 100. So people lvled str weapons. I've never experienced this on any test server ever, including the test server. So I strongly believe it's normal gains.
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[quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="TRICEPTIMOUS"]Not sure if it is the way, i believe on esoma all weaps ave the same dex after 100. So people lvled str weapons.
If the dex / str gains were still distributed after 100, as they are normally, then there would be no problem? [/quote]
I've never experienced this on any test server ever, including the test server. So I strongly believe it's normal gains.[/quote]
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#32 2013/12/20 11:10:20 |
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TRICEPTIMOUS |
"GHOSTLORD""TRICEPTIMOUS"Not sure if it is the way, i believe on esoma all weaps ave the same dex after 100. So people lvled str weapons. Then surely there is no issue? If you lvled axe at 100+ dex, you would get fast str but slower dex? If you lvled bow at 100+ dex you would get slow str but faster dex? Possibly just another case of people saying "INT is OP" because its not soft capped?
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[quote="TRICEPTIMOUS"][quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="TRICEPTIMOUS"]Not sure if it is the way, i believe on esoma all weaps ave the same dex after 100. So people lvled str weapons.
If the dex / str gains were still distributed after 100, as they are normally, then there would be no problem? [/quote]
I've never experienced this on any test server ever, including the test server. So I strongly believe it's normal gains.[/quote]
Then surely there is no issue?
If you lvled axe at 100+ dex, you would get fast str but slower dex?
If you lvled bow at 100+ dex you would get slow str but faster dex?
Possibly just another case of people saying "INT is OP" because its not soft capped? [/quote]
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#33 2013/12/20 11:38:40 |
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SARGERAS |
Think people just want a clear cut answer Tri.
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#34 2013/12/20 11:46:12 |
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GHOSTLORD |
"TRICEPTIMOUS""GHOSTLORD""TRICEPTIMOUS"Not sure if it is the way, i believe on esoma all weaps ave the same dex after 100. So people lvled str weapons. Because DEX is slower (need more EXP per 0.1 than STR) the gap goes up. For instance (made up numbers): At 90 dex it needs 10000 XP At 90 STR it needs 5000 XP The slowdown at 95 would be 2x resulting in XP per dex: 20000 XP XP per STR 10000 XP WIs works the same way but as I said earlier in this thread - WIS is not a choise. So yes, it is possible to lvl as bow to get 0.1 STR per 0.1 DEX however if you'd use axe you'd get something like 0.5 STR or more per 0.1 dex. It is a choise which you want to lvl and it does matter which weapon you use. So to answer your question, there isn't an issue in my opinion. As a sidenote - stats seem to 'speed up' (especially on dsoma) after 110 because you get higher lvl and need more XP per lvl, resulting in more stats per lvl.
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[quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="TRICEPTIMOUS"][quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote="TRICEPTIMOUS"]Not sure if it is the way, i believe on esoma all weaps ave the same dex after 100. So people lvled str weapons.
If the dex / str gains were still distributed after 100, as they are normally, then there would be no problem? [/quote]
I've never experienced this on any test server ever, including the test server. So I strongly believe it's normal gains.[/quote]
Then surely there is no issue?
If you lvled axe at 100+ dex, you would get fast str but slower dex?
If you lvled bow at 100+ dex you would get slow str but faster dex?
Possibly just another case of people saying "INT is OP" because its not soft capped? [/quote]
Because DEX is slower (need more EXP per 0.1 than STR) the gap goes up. For instance (made up numbers):
At 90 dex it needs 10000 XP
At 90 STR it needs 5000 XP
The slowdown at 95 would be 2x resulting in
XP per dex: 20000 XP
XP per STR 10000 XP
WIs works the same way but as I said earlier in this thread - WIS is not a choise.
So yes, it is possible to lvl as bow to get 0.1 STR per 0.1 DEX however if you'd use axe you'd get something like 0.5 STR or more per 0.1 dex. It is a choise which you want to lvl and it does matter which weapon you use.
So to answer your question, there isn't an issue in my opinion.
As a sidenote - stats seem to 'speed up' (especially on dsoma) after 110 because you get higher lvl and need more XP per lvl, resulting in more stats per lvl.[/quote]
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#35 2013/12/20 11:50:40 |
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ACAELUS |
There is an issue if dex effectively stops. Speculation is not getting us anywhere, need an answer from isylver or finito.
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#36 2013/12/20 11:57:36 |
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LARGA |
The issue is if dex gains effectively stop at 100 what's the point in using any Wep apart from axe - every other weapon becomes redundant - just makes the game boring.
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#37 2013/12/20 12:06:28 |
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FUJITORA |
"LARGA"The issue is if dex gains effectively stop at 100 what's the point in using any Wep apart from axe - every other weapon becomes redundant - just makes the game boring. As i wrote previously IF such a softcap exists, using other weapons other than axe would mean you dont have to get to 100 dex using bow / knuk. Making the numbers off the top of my head... You could get to 95 dex and do axe, and by the time you reach str cap you will have 100 dex You could get to 90 dex and do spear, and by the time you reach str cap you will have 100 dex You could get to 85 dex and do sword, and you know the deal... Again the numbers are totally made up.
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[quote="FUJITORA"][quote="LARGA"]The issue is if dex gains effectively stop at 100 what's the point in using any Wep apart from axe - every other weapon becomes redundant - just makes the game boring.[/quote]
As i wrote previously IF such a softcap exists, using other weapons other than axe would mean you dont have to get to 100 dex using bow / knuk.
Making the numbers off the top of my head...
You could get to 95 dex and do axe, and by the time you reach str cap you will have 100 dex
You could get to 90 dex and do spear, and by the time you reach str cap you will have 100 dex
You could get to 85 dex and do sword, and you know the deal...
Again the numbers are totally made up.[/quote]
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#38 2013/12/20 12:09:44 |
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NEOXIAN |
oh my goodness do humans ever stop moaning lol? may as well be asking for 40x rates and insane caps like test server where nothing whatsoever was balanced.
the dex softcap is the same as it has always been. even devils experience it as spear and axe dex gains after 100 are very very slow, it's only really archers and possibly knux then sword who have any form of dex moving into 80+ hsoma has had the softcap always and it won't be lifted or moved, if you use a BOW to train after 100 dex you will have gains just proportionally slower than you would have. However, as you level you will need way more xp therefore 10% per .1 dex now will relay back to 5% per .1 dex by level 90 for example and so on.. the mechanic is a SLOWDOWN which im sure is designed to help people catch up but if you persevere with it then gains are still ok.
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[quote="NEOXIAN"]oh my goodness do humans ever stop moaning lol? may as well be asking for 40x rates and insane caps like test server where nothing whatsoever was balanced.
the dex softcap is the same as it has always been. even devils experience it as spear and axe dex gains after 100 are very very slow, it's only really archers and possibly knux then sword who have any form of dex moving into 80+
hsoma has had the softcap always and it won't be lifted or moved, if you use a BOW to train after 100 dex you will have gains just proportionally slower than you would have. However, as you level you will need way more xp therefore 10% per .1 dex now will relay back to 5% per .1 dex by level 90 for example and so on..
the mechanic is a SLOWDOWN which im sure is designed to help people catch up but if you persevere with it then gains are still ok.[/quote]
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#39 2013/12/20 12:12:55 |
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GHOSTLORD |
"ACAELUS"There is an issue if dex effectively stops. Speculation is not getting us anywhere, need an answer from isylver or finito. Agreed, though some testing from someone who has more than 100 dex would also clarify it. |
#40 2013/12/20 12:14:06 |
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ACAELUS |
Asking for confirmation is not moaning. Obviously we'd want to know as it changes the dynamics of the game.
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#41 2013/12/20 12:25:37 |
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BELKA |
"SARGERAS"Thats the point I think, in esoma it was commonly known that dex would effectively be ridiculously slow at 100.0+ in a sense that i remember seeing screenshots toward the end of the game that fleshtuh had like 112 dex or so.. whereas on test server it would be able to be raised to MUCH higher.. On the test server you were lucky to have something like 200.3 DEX after months of grinding (with very high rates). So I'm not sure that humans will get a figure like 10 DEX more than the softcap, if the mechanics are the same. I'd love to be proven wrong on this. I really like the idea that a human can cap either STr or INT - and not both, but if a mage can get 100 DEX and evasion it may be more powerful a melee character with 110 DEX, acc and a fast wep. It all comes down to how much damage more base INT does without any MA accessories on a character. Especially if a melee character has to wear INT armor and forfeit their melee stats on it. The main problem is that this balance is something that can't be accurately predicted, and you can't tone down (or up) people's upgrades once people begin to reach these stats. I hope it is ok, but the more information we can get the better. The only thing I am confident about is that Knuck and Sword are very very inefficient for this state. They will give tiny DEX advantages over axe and spear, while the STR weps will race to the STR cap faster and with much less % used. That's gonna be a huge problem for a melee-based character without axe/spear and bow. "NEOXIAN"oh my goodness do humans ever stop moaning lol? may as well be asking for 40x rates and insane caps like test server where nothing whatsoever was balanced. Why do you even post? Leveling a human is many fold more complex than a devil. There is a lack of critical information and nobody is asking for any nerfs or buffs - only for clear information and understanding. We have heavy character customisation rather than left clicking ABs for 60 levels, which is why we have a discussion forum.
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[quote="BELKA"][quote="SARGERAS"]Thats the point I think, in esoma it was commonly known that dex would effectively be ridiculously slow at 100.0+ in a sense that i remember seeing screenshots toward the end of the game that fleshtuh had like 112 dex or so.. whereas on test server it would be able to be raised to MUCH higher..
Not sure if it was a real screenshot btw, just saying.[/quote]
On the test server you were lucky to have something like 200.3 DEX after months of grinding (with very high rates). So I'm not sure that humans will get a figure like 10 DEX more than the softcap, if the mechanics are the same. I'd love to be proven wrong on this.
I really like the idea that a human can cap either STr or INT - and not both, but if a mage can get 100 DEX and evasion it may be more powerful a melee character with 110 DEX, acc and a fast wep. It all comes down to how much damage more base INT does without any MA accessories on a character. Especially if a melee character has to wear INT armor and forfeit their melee stats on it.
The main problem is that this balance is something that can't be accurately predicted, and you can't tone down (or up) people's upgrades once people begin to reach these stats. I hope it is ok, but the more information we can get the better.
The only thing I am confident about is that Knuck and Sword are very very inefficient for this state. They will give tiny DEX advantages over axe and spear, while the STR weps will race to the STR cap faster and with much less % used. That's gonna be a huge problem for a melee-based character without axe/spear and bow.
[quote="NEOXIAN"]oh my goodness do humans ever stop moaning lol? may as well be asking for 40x rates and insane caps like test server where nothing whatsoever was balanced.
[/quote]
Why do you even post?
Leveling a human is many fold more complex than a devil.
There is a lack of critical information and nobody is asking for any nerfs or buffs - only for clear information and understanding.
We have heavy character customisation rather than left clicking ABs for 60 levels, which is why we have a discussion forum.
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#42 2013/12/20 14:20:15 |
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PLUTO |
Havent all weapons been "balanced" to provide even stats, say:
Sword 100 str:100dex Axe 150 str:50dex Spear 130 str:70 dex (These are random numbers) So you are always gaining 200 points of stats at all times? (Same for bow and knuckle) is what i am under the impression of how it works. So nobody is at a disadvantage if that is the case, you just have to plan your char like Fuji has mentioned above, if you use sword you could probably start it around 85 dex and be near 100 dex by str cap. Nobody is forcing anybody to use a dex weapon until 100 dex and then use axe for str. If you use a weapon other than axe you just have to plan accordingly.
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[quote="PLUTO"]Havent all weapons been "balanced" to provide even stats, say:
Sword 100 str:100dex
Axe 150 str:50dex
Spear 130 str:70 dex
(These are random numbers)
So you are always gaining 200 points of stats at all times? (Same for bow and knuckle) is what i am under the impression of how it works.
So nobody is at a disadvantage if that is the case, you just have to plan your char like Fuji has mentioned above, if you use sword you could probably start it around 85 dex and be near 100 dex by str cap.
Nobody is forcing anybody to use a dex weapon until 100 dex and then use axe for str.
If you use a weapon other than axe you just have to plan accordingly.[/quote]
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#43 2013/12/20 14:35:56 |
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GHOSTLORD |
I disagree with this, though I only experienced it at a low lvl. My lvl 15 pure knuckle char has 25 str 22.2 dex. My mate is a pure sword char has 28.3 str 21.7 dex and is one lvl higher. I really would like to see how this ends up for the knuxer, so far I noticed that the 'grind' is longer on mobs (so far it has resulted in more drops) but when you do get to the next mob it'll be easier since you have more dex. Again, this is low lvl stuff, I can only imagine how it'll end up at high lvl.
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[quote="GHOSTLORD"][quote]
The only thing I am confident about is that Knuck and Sword are very very inefficient for this state. They will give tiny DEX advantages over axe and spear, while the STR weps will race to the STR cap faster and with much less % used. That's gonna be a huge problem for a melee-based character without axe/spear and bow.
[/quote]
I disagree with this, though I only experienced it at a low lvl.
My lvl 15 pure knuckle char has 25 str 22.2 dex.
My mate is a pure sword char has 28.3 str 21.7 dex and is one lvl higher.
I really would like to see how this ends up for the knuxer, so far I noticed that the 'grind' is longer on mobs (so far it has resulted in more drops) but when you do get to the next mob it'll be easier since you have more dex.
Again, this is low lvl stuff, I can only imagine how it'll end up at high lvl.
[/quote]
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#44 2013/12/20 19:48:17 |
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KEY |
people need to remember that on esoma all weapons above a certain str ( i think it was 95 maybee) gained str at the same rate, hence the reason every single person on the server just levelled with bow as u had the range and u gained dex still... this server is very different and axe will allways be the better wep for gaining str. in the long run all wepons other than axe will be made useless to level with. whats the point in levelling with sword after 100 dex if str gains are ALOT slower, when perfect defence is ridiculous, they in theory dont have to upgrade any weapons to level with... so not only do they get faster strengh gains they have a gaurenteed speed B axe.
Taking into consideration how bad speed upgrades are on this server... axe just has far to much going for it
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[quote="KEY"]people need to remember that on esoma all weapons above a certain str ( i think it was 95 maybee) gained str at the same rate, hence the reason every single person on the server just levelled with bow as u had the range and u gained dex still... this server is very different and axe will allways be the better wep for gaining str. in the long run all wepons other than axe will be made useless to level with. whats the point in levelling with sword after 100 dex if str gains are ALOT slower, when perfect defence is ridiculous, they in theory dont have to upgrade any weapons to level with... so not only do they get faster strengh gains they have a gaurenteed speed B axe.
Taking into consideration how bad speed upgrades are on this server... axe just has far to much going for it
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#45 2013/12/20 22:20:46 |
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