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FOXOSAURUS |
Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that.
In a way, anvil changes would suit going in at the same time as a whole new weapon balance.
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[quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that.
In a way, anvil changes would suit going in at the same time as a whole new weapon balance. [/quote]
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#151 2019/10/13 12:32:41 |
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SOMAWIZARD |
"FOXOSAURUS"Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that. Before any anvil changes are made it would be nice if fin can actually confirm how the anvil works in regards to success rates. I know that flick posted some figures years back but I do think that these are guesstimated rather than proven as fact. All we do know is that upgrades are performed server side using a c Rand implementation which is actually pretty rubbish for randomness anyway. Maybe we should have a different algorithm instead? Can I ask the council to propose the following questions so the community can get a solid understanding of how the anvil is currently working before we decide changes to it? 1) does any skill over 100 really make any difference with success (has it been placebo all these years), if there really is a bonus at 150, 200 (or any other unknown values) and if by how much %? 2) does upgrading dropped tabs and SS at 0 skill (yes, you can) really use a higher success rate? (150 supposedly) 3) do dropped tabs (including SS) upgrade success rate depend upon its current upgrade level (I'm not sure it actually does) as it seems easier to upgrade than than made tabs. 4) Finally, can we have an official success rate table?
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[quote="SOMAWIZARD"][quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that.
In a way, anvil changes would suit going in at the same time as a whole new weapon balance. [/quote]
Before any anvil changes are made it would be nice if fin can actually confirm how the anvil works in regards to success rates. I know that flick posted some figures years back but I do think that these are guesstimated rather than proven as fact. All we do know is that upgrades are performed server side using a c Rand implementation which is actually pretty rubbish for randomness anyway. Maybe we should have a different algorithm instead?
Can I ask the council to propose the following questions so the community can get a solid understanding of how the anvil is currently working before we decide changes to it?
1) does any skill over 100 really make any difference with success (has it been placebo all these years), if there really is a bonus at 150, 200 (or any other unknown values) and if by how much %?
2) does upgrading dropped tabs and SS at 0 skill (yes, you can) really use a higher success rate? (150 supposedly)
3) do dropped tabs (including SS) upgrade success rate depend upon its current upgrade level (I'm not sure it actually does) as it seems easier to upgrade than than made tabs.
4) Finally, can we have an official success rate table?
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#152 2019/10/13 13:27:24 |
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RAVENSOUL |
I've been asking some of them questions myself wiz, but I will bring them up again and anymore anyone wishing to be put up for discussion post here, thanks.
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#153 2019/10/13 13:43:32 |
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TYRESE |
Can I please suggest that players who activate crystals for Nega gain an attack boost whilst inside the Nega room.
Say 5 players each activate 1 Crystal each they gain 10 attack. If one player activates all 5 crystals they gain 50 attack. At the moment there is a small handful of players who will do the crystals and put the effort in and more often than not other players who never did any leg work swan in and get the drop. I think the reward vs effort ratio is way off and this idea would help to balance that.
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[quote="TYRESE"]Can I please suggest that players who activate crystals for Nega gain an attack boost whilst inside the Nega room.
Say 5 players each activate 1 Crystal each they gain 10 attack.
If one player activates all 5 crystals they gain 50 attack.
At the moment there is a small handful of players who will do the crystals and put the effort in and more often than not other players who never did any leg work swan in and get the drop.
I think the reward vs effort ratio is way off and this idea would help to balance that.[/quote]
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#154 2019/10/14 19:41:45 |
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RAZOR |
"TYRESE"Can I please suggest that players who activate crystals for Nega gain an attack boost whilst inside the Nega room. It was brought up but do you really want China/papapilas to get extra attack on Negamare
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[quote="RAZOR"][quote="TYRESE"]Can I please suggest that players who activate crystals for Nega gain an attack boost whilst inside the Nega room.
Say 5 players each activate 1 Crystal each they gain 10 attack.
If one player activates all 5 crystals they gain 50 attack.
At the moment there is a small handful of players who will do the crystals and put the effort in and more often than not other players who never did any leg work swan in and get the drop.
I think the reward vs effort ratio is way off and this idea would help to balance that.[/quote]
It was brought up but do you really want China/papapilas to get extra attack on Negamare
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#155 2019/10/15 08:58:48 |
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ALBION |
"FOXOSAURUS"Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that. Surely more chance of upgrades working and weapons staying in game would boost the economy? If the risk of upgrading was lower, even to +3, people will be more willing to upgrade and then sell on spares. There's no point having a wh full of +5 intense bows. It would also give a boost to lower levels / alts as people would use upgrades on lower tier weps and armour if they already have enough gear, keeping the economy more diversified and making levelling a new character that little bit easier.
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[quote="ALBION"][quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that.
In a way, anvil changes would suit going in at the same time as a whole new weapon balance. [/quote]
Surely more chance of upgrades working and weapons staying in game would boost the economy?
If the risk of upgrading was lower, even to +3, people will be more willing to upgrade and then sell on spares. There's no point having a wh full of +5 intense bows. It would also give a boost to lower levels / alts as people would use upgrades on lower tier weps and armour if they already have enough gear, keeping the economy more diversified and making levelling a new character that little bit easier.
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#156 2019/10/15 11:05:02 |
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PAPAPILAS |
Razor you need to attend to understand...
Hardly anyone goes to do the crystals, i would say the best part of 5~6 chars ever go. On many occasions only 1 person is doing the run but at the boss you would have 5~10 chars there. I have never seen china do a run but they are always there hence you should give a buff to who goes on a crystal run. I do almost every run, hence i get a decent amount of kills. im sure there is a good 5~6 chars that have never gone but have had a kill. If the few chars stop going there will be no nega.
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[quote="PAPAPILAS"]Razor you need to attend to understand...
Hardly anyone goes to do the crystals, i would say the best part of 5~6 chars ever go.
On many occasions only 1 person is doing the run but at the boss you would have 5~10 chars there.
I have never seen china do a run but they are always there hence you should give a buff to who goes on a crystal run.
I do almost every run, hence i get a decent amount of kills.
im sure there is a good 5~6 chars that have never gone but have had a kill.
If the few chars stop going there will be no nega.[/quote]
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#157 2019/10/15 13:08:27 |
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RAZOR |
This was just mentioned in the discussion don't shoot the messenger. But I do concur with them, would you not do the crystal run if it meant and additional 10 damage per hit on nega stacking up to 50 damage?
I certainly think China would. Edit: I much prefer the idea that if you click a crystal it counts towards a repeatable quest that offers negamare loot.
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[quote="RAZOR"]This was just mentioned in the discussion don't shoot the messenger. But I do concur with them, would you not do the crystal run if it meant and additional 10 damage per hit on nega stacking up to 50 damage?
I certainly think China would.
Edit: I much prefer the idea that if you click a crystal it counts towards a repeatable quest that offers negamare loot.[/quote]
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#158 2019/10/15 13:41:11 |
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THE_D0N |
i'm with papapilas on this one.
I've recently been joining in with a majority of these runs and i think out of the last 10 i've run papapilas has prob done 7 of them. if not papapilas its with ngu. does get abit tedious when you do some of the main work unlocking the turd for next to 0 out come but i feel better joining the crystals, knowing i have contributed to the boss instead of nothing for the probability of a reward. Even killed neg with just me and papapilas once. but defo recon crystal's u hit to unlock need some sort of boost or reward for it than doing for other's lazyness.
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[quote="THE_D0N"]i'm with papapilas on this one.
I've recently been joining in with a majority of these runs and i think out of the last 10 i've run papapilas has prob done 7 of them. if not papapilas its with ngu.
does get abit tedious when you do some of the main work unlocking the turd for next to 0 out come but i feel better joining the crystals, knowing i have contributed to the boss instead of nothing for the probability of a reward.
Even killed neg with just me and papapilas once.
but defo recon crystal's u hit to unlock need some sort of boost or reward for it than doing for other's lazyness.[/quote]
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#159 2019/10/15 13:42:09 |
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COFFEESILK |
"PAPAPILAS"Razor you need to attend to understand... I totally agree. I know for a fact that 90% of the time papapilas does the crystals as does tongskie, myself, dosgardenias, and a small group of others. Never seen china do them to be honest.. There really has to be an incentive for ppl to do crystals and an advantage for those that put in the effort BTW. Sorry about this morning, you was outnumbered at the crystals but it was great fun racing to do them :)
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[quote="COFFEESILK"][quote="PAPAPILAS"]Razor you need to attend to understand...
Hardly anyone goes to do the crystals, i would say the best part of 5~6 chars ever go.
On many occasions only 1 person is doing the run but at the boss you would have 5~10 chars there.
I have never seen china do a run but they are always there hence you should give a buff to who goes on a crystal run.
I do almost every run, hence i get a decent amount of kills.
im sure there is a good 5~6 chars that have never gone but have had a kill.
If the few chars stop going there will be no nega.[/quote]
I totally agree. I know for a fact that 90% of the time papapilas does the crystals as does tongskie, myself, dosgardenias, and a small group of others. Never seen china do them to be honest..
There really has to be an incentive for ppl to do crystals and an advantage for those that put in the effort
BTW. Sorry about this morning, you was outnumbered at the crystals but it was great fun racing to do them :)[/quote]
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#160 2019/10/15 14:17:51 |
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RAZOR |
The point has nothing to do with china doing them or not, the point is that giving people +10 attack won't help the people who are struggling to get a kill on nega because they wont be the ones activating the crystals. Do you think China will ignore up to +50 free extra damage if the crystal change goes in? They will just run 5 alts to the crystals and have more chance of killing nega than before.
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[quote="RAZOR"]The point has nothing to do with china doing them or not, the point is that giving people +10 attack won't help the people who are struggling to get a kill on nega because they wont be the ones activating the crystals. Do you think China will ignore up to +50 free extra damage if the crystal change goes in? They will just run 5 alts to the crystals and have more chance of killing nega than before.[/quote]
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#161 2019/10/15 14:24:51 |
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THE_D0N |
"RAZOR"The point has nothing to do with china doing them or not, the point is that giving people +10 attack won't help the people who are struggling to get a kill on nega because they wont be the ones activating the crystals. Do you think China will ignore up to +50 free extra damage if the crystal change goes in? They will just run 5 alts to the crystals and have more chance of killing nega than before. Buy surely with that type of incentive if it's there and he gets all fair play. But it would be for everyone so it's you out the work in u deserve something especially if you get all 5. If u don't do crystals theres still a window to get. But would also need to take in consideration. U said about the people struggling. It would also help them boost abit by doing them ? So if China does 0 and the others do crystals ??? Need to talk. Nor ally papapilas - ngu - Virgil talk to each other and splint the 4 of us ( depending whos on ) between to benefit the speed. Could get 5 random 100+ doing it they only have to hit it / click it and it's done. Not like u have to kill a boss on your own.
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[quote="THE_D0N"][quote="RAZOR"]The point has nothing to do with china doing them or not, the point is that giving people +10 attack won't help the people who are struggling to get a kill on nega because they wont be the ones activating the crystals. Do you think China will ignore up to +50 free extra damage if the crystal change goes in? They will just run 5 alts to the crystals and have more chance of killing nega than before.[/quote]
Buy surely with that type of incentive if it's there and he gets all fair play. But it would be for everyone so it's you out the work in u deserve something especially if you get all 5. If u don't do crystals theres still a window to get. But would also need to take in consideration. U said about the people struggling. It would also help them boost abit by doing them ? So if China does 0 and the others do crystals ???
Need to talk. Nor ally papapilas - ngu - Virgil talk to each other and splint the 4 of us ( depending whos on ) between to benefit the speed. Could get 5 random 100+ doing it they only have to hit it / click it and it's done. Not like u have to kill a boss on your own. [/quote]
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#162 2019/10/15 14:43:56 |
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RAZOR |
Yeah I get that and the fact that noone has a speed advantage means it would be an even playing field but I would still prefer it if you get rewarded for damage to negamare, I suppose you could implement both.
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#163 2019/10/15 15:27:41 |
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FOXOSAURUS |
"ALBION""FOXOSAURUS"Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that. The thing is that +5s are common in Tier 3 (Hoarde Hands/Stingers), a little less so in Tier 2 (Pan Claw / Gore Lancet) and a lot less in Tier 1. Now its a diffierent for bows and I think that may be the point your getting at... I think what frustrates a lot of people is the game directs you and encourages you (and rewards you) for choosing Bow but bow comes with its own pain of dura loss even when you miss shots and generally has one of the lowest max duras as a weapon class. 1 SR/4 hours isn't going to cut it - but some people either craft for more SRs or even just share accounts / guild SRs so it isnt an issue. So it encourages, people to have several bows. Thats the only way to maximise up time for people wanting to "get certain parts of the game over and done with". That's where the shortage of them comes from in my opinion. Anyway I'm open minded to a change to the anvil but a stepped change is the better way then a 'lumped' change (I think) because whilst bows are obviously in demand, the other weapon classes are a lot less and whatever value they hold, they'll just become untradable.
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[quote="FOXOSAURUS"][quote="ALBION"][quote="FOXOSAURUS"]Cant easily undo any miscalcuation by an anvil change. Thats the biggest risk. If there was 35% more upgraded items in game and 20% more +5 or higher items compared to a predicted 'what would happen if there was no change' and the market slumped to nothing even with a UC upshot. There would be no easy undo button to that.
In a way, anvil changes would suit going in at the same time as a whole new weapon balance. [/quote]
Surely more chance of upgrades working and weapons staying in game would boost the economy?
If the risk of upgrading was lower, even to +3, people will be more willing to upgrade and then sell on spares. There's no point having a wh full of +5 intense bows. It would also give a boost to lower levels / alts as people would use upgrades on lower tier weps and armour if they already have enough gear, keeping the economy more diversified and making levelling a new character that little bit easier.
[/quote]
The thing is that +5s are common in Tier 3 (Hoarde Hands/Stingers), a little less so in Tier 2 (Pan Claw / Gore Lancet) and a lot less in Tier 1.
Now its a diffierent for bows and I think that may be the point your getting at...
I think what frustrates a lot of people is the game directs you and encourages you (and rewards you) for choosing Bow but bow comes with its own pain of dura loss even when you miss shots and generally has one of the lowest max duras as a weapon class. 1 SR/4 hours isn't going to cut it - but some people either craft for more SRs or even just share accounts / guild SRs so it isnt an issue. So it encourages, people to have several bows. Thats the only way to maximise up time for people wanting to "get certain parts of the game over and done with". That's where the shortage of them comes from in my opinion.
Anyway I'm open minded to a change to the anvil but a stepped change is the better way then a 'lumped' change (I think) because whilst bows are obviously in demand, the other weapon classes are a lot less and whatever value they hold, they'll just become untradable.[/quote]
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#164 2019/10/15 15:28:20 |
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TYRESE |
Razor I appreciate the worry regarding China doing all crystals. But it would be impossible for them. They would need 5 x chars at the portal and then beat people running to the same location while trying to multi box 5 clients. Also then each char (if he did manage to get all 5) would need to be in Nega and I know for a fact how hard it is to have more than two clients running he would die continuously while trying to pot on each char.
Basically there are 5 crystals and the people who do the running split them equally. I do mag and shiro whenever I do them and would happily give one up if someone else came along for the attack bonus. But on the occasion where nobody turns up and I’ve activated all the crystals spending 15mins running about then being warped to tyt and spending another 6 or so minutes running back to Nega portal only for China who did none of the leg work to turn up and get the kill is a little annoying. The more people have an incentive to do the crystals the better. If you attended Nega you would soon understand the problems which people are facing.
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[quote="TYRESE"]Razor I appreciate the worry regarding China doing all crystals. But it would be impossible for them. They would need 5 x chars at the portal and then beat people running to the same location while trying to multi box 5 clients. Also then each char (if he did manage to get all 5) would need to be in Nega and I know for a fact how hard it is to have more than two clients running he would die continuously while trying to pot on each char.
Basically there are 5 crystals and the people who do the running split them equally. I do mag and shiro whenever I do them and would happily give one up if someone else came along for the attack bonus.
But on the occasion where nobody turns up and I’ve activated all the crystals spending 15mins running about then being warped to tyt and spending another 6 or so minutes running back to Nega portal only for China who did none of the leg work to turn up and get the kill is a little annoying.
The more people have an incentive to do the crystals the better. If you attended Nega you would soon understand the problems which people are facing. [/quote]
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#165 2019/10/15 15:53:03 |
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